Eaton.. Ported vs. Non ***SPLIT FROM OTHER THREAD***
04-02-2006, 11:32 AM
#41
Teching In
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bird
Finally starting to see some data here instead of just charts - good ! Do you know what the load numbers were for each setup at the different RPM's ? That'll tell a lot of the story also. I'll paraphrase BC from earlier in this thread - "show me the actual data of his pulls" (referring to Stieg's testing). As most tuners will tell you - there's more to tuning than just throwing timing at it and setting an A/F ratio. Another thing that might help here is a comparison chart of boost / rpm for each blower. When I was working with mine, it was showing more boost from 2500 rpm on up. To validate that, I made sure that the bypass actuator was at the same setting as the stocker. (if set light, the boost will come on slower, etc) Were the IAT-2 temps/boost/rpm of both setups logged - lot of data that could show things still needed here.
I never said that BC 'made up' the charts - just pointing out that it may or may not be valid with so many variables being in there. Even just setting the boost actuators differently can cause a huge change in the way a blower responds at lower RPMS. BC, with all of his testing experience, can surely appreciate that all the different variables have to be accounted for - not just throwing parts on there and saying one works and one doesn't. That's not scientific and true validation testing doesn't take just one test and draw final conclusions - there's a very large number of people out there who have had great results with ported blowers, stripped rotors or not, to say that this test is conclusive. When something doesn't appear to work (and known to work for others), I like to actually figure out 'why'...............
I'll still be at the dyno this next week (time/work) permitting and I'll go ahead and optimize for my mods and ported blower, then throw the stocker back on there and see what happens - I'll get charts.
Bird
I never said that BC 'made up' the charts - just pointing out that it may or may not be valid with so many variables being in there. Even just setting the boost actuators differently can cause a huge change in the way a blower responds at lower RPMS. BC, with all of his testing experience, can surely appreciate that all the different variables have to be accounted for - not just throwing parts on there and saying one works and one doesn't. That's not scientific and true validation testing doesn't take just one test and draw final conclusions - there's a very large number of people out there who have had great results with ported blowers, stripped rotors or not, to say that this test is conclusive. When something doesn't appear to work (and known to work for others), I like to actually figure out 'why'...............
I'll still be at the dyno this next week (time/work) permitting and I'll go ahead and optimize for my mods and ported blower, then throw the stocker back on there and see what happens - I'll get charts.
Bird
I can't honestly tell you the load numbers for that truck because all of us (including tuner) were trying to figure why it wasn't making good power. I'll see if I can get a hold of the load numbers from the guys tuner. However I do have a couple more facts for you. On the ported blower the truck would peg at 10 WOT and within the last 300 rpms would jump to 15. The actuator is not to blame here. It was set to come on as fast as possible, the stage 4 port just didn't want to bring it all on. As a result the tune had to be "optimized" for such and when it was switched to the stock eaton it actually ran richer. This makes a little more room for tuning which means the numbers on the stock are only going to get higher. Oh and on the stock eaton the boost instantly hits 12 and creeps to 13 up top.
Next I do know for a fact that a similar truck was dyno tuned the same day. ( not yesterday but a couple of days earlier) It had very similar mods, in fact all the same mods as this test truck did. The only difference was the other truck had a six pound lower instead of a four. That truck's final numbers were 411 and 509. That means with 2 more pounds of boost that truck beat the stock blower truck by 18hp, but lost by 3 torque. Very suprising numbers for a port job that "should" be performing.
There was also another truck dyno'd yesterday. This truck had a 6 lb lower, ported blower, CAI, long tubes, 2 cat x-pipe, maggy mufflers,upgraded fuel pumps, and 2500 stall converter. This truck made 406 and 511. The maf was not pegged either. These numbers are suprising to me for a truck tuned for 13 degrees of timing on a 66 degree day.
Once again bird, perhaps the port worked for you but I have shown you 3 cases in which I feel it is hurting performance. BC brought you proof of one and I am sure that after hearing the gains from stock at least one other will be going back to stock as well. If that is done I will be sure to give you a full print out on it.
04-02-2006, 12:25 PM
#44
Teching In
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is anyone else now getting sent to a different website when they click on the link to the FAQ page? I have tried to get on all morning and it keeps sending me to travel web site or something. Strange.
04-02-2006, 01:23 PM
#46
Teching In
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Independence Mo.
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
im new to the lightning game but you two are comparing apples to oranges a stock and a ported blower are two defrent anamals. if you remove matarial from the roter of a blower it will make it looser and there for less efeciant but we don't run teflon strips to take up the gap like funny cars do to make them more efficant because you would have to replace them every few miles. if you strip the roters you are trading a little effeciancey for less matnence on a ported blowere this would still be the case but you are making a more efficiant air flow entry so you would still gain hp from the efficancy of the intake air entry. i do not have a heavly modified truck all i have is an aem brute force and the better efficancy of the new air intake added about 2# of boost.
not taking the flaking issue and relyability in to account if you compair both striped and coated roters IN THE SAME EXACT CASE the coted roters should be more effeciant because there is less space between surfaces this should be the case in a ported or non ported case. if there is a defrence at the track is anybodys guess because there are too many other variables invalved to see the neglagable defrence the missing coating would make on a street truck.
sorry for the horendus spelling i hope you get my drift
not taking the flaking issue and relyability in to account if you compair both striped and coated roters IN THE SAME EXACT CASE the coted roters should be more effeciant because there is less space between surfaces this should be the case in a ported or non ported case. if there is a defrence at the track is anybodys guess because there are too many other variables invalved to see the neglagable defrence the missing coating would make on a street truck.
sorry for the horendus spelling i hope you get my drift
04-02-2006, 03:04 PM
#47
On The Tree
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Spring, Tx.
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as being 'closed minded', I'm not the one here saying the ported blowers won't work - I seem to be the one advocating research as to why you're having problems getting them to give you power. If there's a bunch of you in the same 'group', I'd be looking at possible 'other' causes..........
There's a bunch of us out here that have no problems making power with ported blowers - I'm glad I had the patience to check things, make the proper adjustments and be able to say I'm one of that group. (and willing to help others possibly find the cause of their power loss instead of just saying things don't work).
I'd dare to say that if Bob started yelling, it was probably because there was some going on the other end also, or the call was derogatory - there's 2 sides to every story (but wait, that's showing an open mind.............).
I don't play in sand boxes - too immature. My group doesn't call people names like 'web warrior' or 'child' and we keep open minds and try to analyze.
SocalbolT is the only one that actually comes up with real data that can be looked at............
Bird
There's a bunch of us out here that have no problems making power with ported blowers - I'm glad I had the patience to check things, make the proper adjustments and be able to say I'm one of that group. (and willing to help others possibly find the cause of their power loss instead of just saying things don't work).
I'd dare to say that if Bob started yelling, it was probably because there was some going on the other end also, or the call was derogatory - there's 2 sides to every story (but wait, that's showing an open mind.............).
I don't play in sand boxes - too immature. My group doesn't call people names like 'web warrior' or 'child' and we keep open minds and try to analyze.
SocalbolT is the only one that actually comes up with real data that can be looked at............
Bird
04-02-2006, 03:34 PM
#48
Teching In
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bird,
This graph is real and we all know that. You make good power with a port and we all know that. Some people have problems making power with a port and we definately all know that. Do you not agree that a job that inconsistant is not worth doing? How can anyone be assured that they will make power with his ports if such a clear representation of the opposite is clearly here? I find Stiegs work patchy at best. By that I mean I find just as many people not making power with his ports, as people who are. (sometimes more) That port on that truck was a damn stage 4! This isn't a port from his early days that was less researched. This example is of his "latest and greatest". These findings are appauling to me and I am sure behind the buyer if he wants a full refund. That would only be fair. The fact that stieg claims 30 and 30 gains, only shows that by the stock eaton numbers he owes this guy 40 horses and 90 foot pounds of torque.....
Just curious though, what is your full list of mods? That is quite an impressive number.
This graph is real and we all know that. You make good power with a port and we all know that. Some people have problems making power with a port and we definately all know that. Do you not agree that a job that inconsistant is not worth doing? How can anyone be assured that they will make power with his ports if such a clear representation of the opposite is clearly here? I find Stiegs work patchy at best. By that I mean I find just as many people not making power with his ports, as people who are. (sometimes more) That port on that truck was a damn stage 4! This isn't a port from his early days that was less researched. This example is of his "latest and greatest". These findings are appauling to me and I am sure behind the buyer if he wants a full refund. That would only be fair. The fact that stieg claims 30 and 30 gains, only shows that by the stock eaton numbers he owes this guy 40 horses and 90 foot pounds of torque.....
Just curious though, what is your full list of mods? That is quite an impressive number.
04-02-2006, 03:55 PM
#49
Originally Posted by Bird
I don't play in sand boxes - too immature. My group doesn't call people names like 'web warrior' or 'child' and we keep open minds and try to analyze.
Could have fooled me in the inception of this thread.
My mind is as open as it can be, but when I am faced with simple facts that show the gains are not true then what is one to think?
04-02-2006, 04:11 PM
#50
TECH Addict
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Olathe, KS
Posts: 2,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, do you guys really think that one truck, or even three is enough to come to a solid conclusion, one way or another? I personally don't think that's enough of a test group to prove anything beyond a doubt.