theoretical Radix flow capacities, number chart
05-09-2006, 07:03 PM
#11
Originally Posted by BlownChevy
The MP112 is the same, only the rotors have changed. The graphs on Magnusons site are taken from EATON on the M112 4th Gen. The current Model Magnuson MP112 has the 5th Generation rotor group with the APC (Abradeable Powder Coating)
, now on with this thread. what can we deduct from these numbers?
05-09-2006, 07:27 PM
#12
i have a little something to throw at this. the 112 is 112ci right? divide that by 12 3 times will give you cu ft. now multiply that by 22,000 and you would have the 100% therotical flow. that comes out to 1425cfm.
now with that number we can deduct for less than 100% eficiency. it looks to me you can just take the VE numbers in that chart and multiply by the therotical flow and get actual flow. at the peek i see 90% at 14,000rpm and 10psi, 1425 x 90% = 1282cfm. to me that would appear to be the most it could flow but i really dont belive it is holding 90% at 22k. if the chart falls off like it comes on it will be around 80% at 22k BUT i suspect it falls of much faster as the rpms go up. lets just go with 80%.
1425 x 80% = 1140cfm.
some other numbers to look at... the drive hp would have to be 100hp+ at that rpm. likely 120+hp. lets use 120hp.
rule of thumb .69hp/cfm so 1140 x .69 = 786hp.
now deduct 120hp to drive it and you get 666fwhp.
666 - 15% driveline loss and you end up with 566rwhp for a stick.
666 - 20% gets you to 532rwhp for an auto.
these numbers seem to jive with what we see in the real world. there are a few asumptions in these numbers and without some actual mp112 charts we dont really know but really i think the numbers that people see in the real world tell the more acurate story.
now with that number we can deduct for less than 100% eficiency. it looks to me you can just take the VE numbers in that chart and multiply by the therotical flow and get actual flow. at the peek i see 90% at 14,000rpm and 10psi, 1425 x 90% = 1282cfm. to me that would appear to be the most it could flow but i really dont belive it is holding 90% at 22k. if the chart falls off like it comes on it will be around 80% at 22k BUT i suspect it falls of much faster as the rpms go up. lets just go with 80%.
1425 x 80% = 1140cfm.
some other numbers to look at... the drive hp would have to be 100hp+ at that rpm. likely 120+hp. lets use 120hp.
rule of thumb .69hp/cfm so 1140 x .69 = 786hp.
now deduct 120hp to drive it and you get 666fwhp.
666 - 15% driveline loss and you end up with 566rwhp for a stick.
666 - 20% gets you to 532rwhp for an auto.
these numbers seem to jive with what we see in the real world. there are a few asumptions in these numbers and without some actual mp112 charts we dont really know but really i think the numbers that people see in the real world tell the more acurate story.
05-09-2006, 10:33 PM
#13
Originally Posted by parish8
i have a little something to throw at this. the 112 is 112ci right? divide that by 12 3 times will give you cu ft. now multiply that by 22,000 and you would have the 100% therotical flow. that comes out to 1425cfm.
now with that number we can deduct for less than 100% eficiency. it looks to me you can just take the VE numbers in that chart and multiply by the therotical flow and get actual flow. at the peek i see 90% at 14,000rpm and 10psi, 1425 x 90% = 1282cfm. to me that would appear to be the most it could flow but i really dont belive it is holding 90% at 22k. if the chart falls off like it comes on it will be around 80% at 22k BUT i suspect it falls of much faster as the rpms go up. lets just go with 80%.
1425 x 80% = 1140cfm.
some other numbers to look at... the drive hp would have to be 100hp+ at that rpm. likely 120+hp. lets use 120hp.
rule of thumb .69hp/cfm so 1140 x .69 = 786hp.
now deduct 120hp to drive it and you get 666fwhp.
666 - 15% driveline loss and you end up with 566rwhp for a stick.
666 - 20% gets you to 532rwhp for an auto.
these numbers seem to jive with what we see in the real world. there are a few asumptions in these numbers and without some actual mp112 charts we dont really know but really i think the numbers that people see in the real world tell the more acurate story.
now with that number we can deduct for less than 100% eficiency. it looks to me you can just take the VE numbers in that chart and multiply by the therotical flow and get actual flow. at the peek i see 90% at 14,000rpm and 10psi, 1425 x 90% = 1282cfm. to me that would appear to be the most it could flow but i really dont belive it is holding 90% at 22k. if the chart falls off like it comes on it will be around 80% at 22k BUT i suspect it falls of much faster as the rpms go up. lets just go with 80%.
1425 x 80% = 1140cfm.
some other numbers to look at... the drive hp would have to be 100hp+ at that rpm. likely 120+hp. lets use 120hp.
rule of thumb .69hp/cfm so 1140 x .69 = 786hp.
now deduct 120hp to drive it and you get 666fwhp.
666 - 15% driveline loss and you end up with 566rwhp for a stick.
666 - 20% gets you to 532rwhp for an auto.
these numbers seem to jive with what we see in the real world. there are a few asumptions in these numbers and without some actual mp112 charts we dont really know but really i think the numbers that people see in the real world tell the more acurate story.
seems logical enough
where do you get the 120 drive hp from? I've never seen that figure published or even heard figures to that effect.
EDIT: add whatever % more for the more effecient gen5 vs. the gen4 charts you referenced and I would prettymuch agree. you keep quoting the gen4 data when we are talking gen5 with the Radix, totally cool, we work with what we have, but just as you were diligent with factors that would subtract from the net result, so should you be for the factors that will add to it
Last edited by moregrip; 05-09-2006 at 10:50 PM.
05-09-2006, 10:55 PM
#14
that is from the chart on the magna chart.
it is an estimation but if you look at the 8k-10k there is about a 10hp rise, then from 10k to 12k is about 11hp rise. from there i added 12hp for the 12-14k, 13hp for the 14-16k, 14hp for the 16-18k, 15hp for the 18-20k and 16hp for the 20-22k. that all adds up to 120hp.
if the set up is pushing less than 10psi then it would likely be less hp to drive it. over 10psi and it would be more hp to drive it.
another thing we can estimate from these charts keeping in mind these charts are for the m112 is how hot the discharge air might be. at 22k and 10psi it apears to me that the discharge temp would be well over 400deg. i am adding 30deg for every 2k bump but as you can see the temps are going up at an increasing rate so that is a low estimate.
i know blown chevy likes to give me crap
for sugesting this blower has a limit of a little over 500rwhp but i am just looking at the numbers AND what people are geting with them in the real world. 500rwhp is an impresive amount of power.
it is an estimation but if you look at the 8k-10k there is about a 10hp rise, then from 10k to 12k is about 11hp rise. from there i added 12hp for the 12-14k, 13hp for the 14-16k, 14hp for the 16-18k, 15hp for the 18-20k and 16hp for the 20-22k. that all adds up to 120hp.
if the set up is pushing less than 10psi then it would likely be less hp to drive it. over 10psi and it would be more hp to drive it.
another thing we can estimate from these charts keeping in mind these charts are for the m112 is how hot the discharge air might be. at 22k and 10psi it apears to me that the discharge temp would be well over 400deg. i am adding 30deg for every 2k bump but as you can see the temps are going up at an increasing rate so that is a low estimate.
i know blown chevy likes to give me crap
for sugesting this blower has a limit of a little over 500rwhp but i am just looking at the numbers AND what people are geting with them in the real world. 500rwhp is an impresive amount of power.
05-09-2006, 10:58 PM
#15
Originally Posted by moregrip
seems logical enough
where do you get the 120 drive hp from? I've never seen that figure published or even heard figures to that effect.
EDIT: add whatever % more for the more effecient gen5 vs. the gen4 charts you referenced and I would prettymuch agree. you keep quoting the gen4 data when we are talking gen5 with the Radix, totally cool, we work with what we have, but just as you were diligent with factors that would subtract from the net result, so should you be for the factors that will add to it
where do you get the 120 drive hp from? I've never seen that figure published or even heard figures to that effect.
EDIT: add whatever % more for the more effecient gen5 vs. the gen4 charts you referenced and I would prettymuch agree. you keep quoting the gen4 data when we are talking gen5 with the Radix, totally cool, we work with what we have, but just as you were diligent with factors that would subtract from the net result, so should you be for the factors that will add to it
05-09-2006, 11:01 PM
#16
Originally Posted by parish8
do you think there is any way the gen5 can run at over 80% ve when spun to 22k? i really dont know but my gut feeling is that the VE will drop off prety fast at an rpm that much past the peek VE.
05-09-2006, 11:03 PM
#17
Originally Posted by moregrip
that's where these things shine, in the VE department, if you are willing to extend every other line, then do so with the VE as well
05-09-2006, 11:08 PM
#18
Originally Posted by parish8
i am extending it. the ve line will be a curve. it starts low, curves to a peek and then drops again. you can see it has peeked on the chart and will be going down from there.
05-10-2006, 06:20 AM
#19
i agree that is a tuff one to estimate.
first question i have here is if anyone is spinging their blower to 22k what boost presure might they be running? seems you are looking at the 5psi line but i would think on most set ups to get over 500rwhp you are going to need more than 10psi. if you look at that chart the 10psi ve has peeked at 90% and i assume it will be falling from there.
yes i would expect it to fall off prety hard as the rpms go way out of range but i can't prove that. it seems to me giving it an 80% ve rating at 22k is going on the high side.
first question i have here is if anyone is spinging their blower to 22k what boost presure might they be running? seems you are looking at the 5psi line but i would think on most set ups to get over 500rwhp you are going to need more than 10psi. if you look at that chart the 10psi ve has peeked at 90% and i assume it will be falling from there.
yes i would expect it to fall off prety hard as the rpms go way out of range but i can't prove that. it seems to me giving it an 80% ve rating at 22k is going on the high side.
