14bolt 10.5" 6 lug conversion
07-11-2005, 10:30 PM
#11
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Im pertty shure that axle startes as a ff14bolt then they use a set of semifloat shafts from a 14 bolt what it boils down to is that its a sf 14 but with a 10.5" ring gear. an i believe they are c-clip axles. but im gona ask someone who had one.
07-12-2005, 02:16 AM
#12
I have one. What do you guys want to know?
(I have to say that I have suggested these conversions in the past but got beat down by certain people loudly proffessing the virtues of keeping them full-float and running them that way. This time it seems I don't need to generate interest, it's already present, so I'll give it another shot...)
The axle shafts are custom. They are not tiny 10-bolt shafts, these things are the size of the 10.5" splined end from top to bottom. There are no c-clips in these, axles are retained by one of two different methods discussed below...
Here, compare the 14-bolt conversion axles to an older 10-bolt one:
Another factoid - all these conversion axle shafts are made with 6x5.5" bolt patterns. The first 10.5" rear end I had was 5-lug. To make it 5-lug the 6 holes had to be plugged and redrilled to the 5x5 pattern. Of course you guys can skip that.
The first 10.5" rear I had was make by DriveTrain Direct. These people are in Corona, CA and are complete asses. If I hated you I might suggest you buy from them. One of the axle ends recently failed because the bearing SLID OFF the shaft with the collar and caused damage to the bearing, seal, housing, brakes, and the spanner nut that holds the whole thing in. It didn't come all the way out or it would have been a disaster. Anyway, these people's shop is just a few miles from here. I went down there with it and they wanted nothing to do with it or me. Nothing but excuses and whatever they could say to get me out of their lobby. Worthless, especially Pat...
The kit that was used to build that rear (call it v1.0) is the same one Drivetrain in Las Vegas uses for their conversion. The difference is that the people in NV are SKILLED and pationate about what they do, the morons in Corona CA cannot do anything more complicated than cookie-cutter Danas for Jeep guys any more - skill is gone, now only "migrant" labor. Like a 4L60-E, it can't come out any better than it's builder, so at the NV shop you might have a shot..
Here's a view of v1.0's end flange:
I did put a serious beating on the rear end for quite some time. The picture I have with the front wheels 8" off the ground was taken while abusing that rear end. What ultimately killed it was not the torque but sliding around corners.
I've learned a lot since then. If that 14-bolt in those pictures at the beginning of this thread is the conversion type that uses a spanner nut to hold the bearing in then I can tell you right now it's got possibly the same weakness. The bearing that kit uses has a two-piece outer race. If something in there moves even slightly that bearing comes apart.
Here is the spanner nut, seal, and bearing. Note this is a "wet-bearing" design meaning seal is on the outside and bearing gets gear lube.
And of course it failed:
Enter "v2.0" which is what I have now.
This one was built by Toms Differentials by a guy named Gary Downs. Gary is the long-time owner of The Gear Shop and this year bought Toms Differentials and merged his shop into the Tom's location in Paramount, CA. Tom moved on to other things out of state. The new business carries Gary's old name of "The Gear Shop" but he retains Tom's line of products.
The Gear Shop builds a pretty wicked 10.5" conversion of their own. His market has been old-school K-5 Blazers and older full-size SFA trucks though. He hasn't done anything with the newer trucks. In fact, say the word "metric" in that shop and you'll see a bunch of guys cringe.
That said, the conversions they do are sized for SAE 1980's stuff. That means 7/16" studs, larger hubs (about 90mm) as well as the appropriate brakes to go with it. Read: 11" Dual-Action JB6 Drums.
It is possible to put discs on these because they have a flange on the housing just like a 10-bolt. There are two bolt patters for the backing plate flange though and the one he uses on his kit is the one appropriate to 11" drums, not 10" drums. Finding out what the pattern is on the stock 10-bolt flange will determine compatibility.
I had to deal with the studs because I didn't realize when I ordered this it would have tiny SAE studs in it. My fault. I ended up having to weld on a backing plate to the axle flange with more perimeter material that the custom axles in order to stay strong after being drilled out to the larger 39/64th. holes for the 14mm x 1.5 studs. Gary may be persuaded to make the axle flanges a diameter large enough to acommodate the metric studs and he might also machine the hubs the smaller size of the metric convention. This is all minor stuff.
For me, v2.0 was left as 6-lug as I requested because it enabled me to run a larger version of the rims I really like, not available in 5-lug. I still had to convert it from SAE to Metric though.
The biggest difference in this 14-bolt conversion is the ends. This one uses real sealed bearing packed with their own gease. The seal is on the inside and the bearing is pressed on the axle shaft and backed up with a pressed-on collar. No gear lube touches these bearings, and the bearings are much larger. The whole thing is held in the tube by a plate held by the flange bolts. This is stout - like a Ford 9". This one isn't coming undone.
No reason why there couldn't be discs here instead of the drums.
This is what I had to do for the metric studs:
Making this work for discs will require no compromise on the hubs and the studs. If those can be right everything else should bolt into place. Honestly, the 11" JB6 brakes are far superior to the crappy GM discs on half-ton trucks. Put it this way, my "parking brake" can not only prevent the truck from rolling but also lock up the rear wheels if I push it en-route. Let's see GM rear discs pull THAT off. Downside is obviously they are VERY heavy, the whole thing is. For a 10-second work truck I would stick with the discs too. lol
(I have to say that I have suggested these conversions in the past but got beat down by certain people loudly proffessing the virtues of keeping them full-float and running them that way. This time it seems I don't need to generate interest, it's already present, so I'll give it another shot...)
The axle shafts are custom. They are not tiny 10-bolt shafts, these things are the size of the 10.5" splined end from top to bottom. There are no c-clips in these, axles are retained by one of two different methods discussed below...
Here, compare the 14-bolt conversion axles to an older 10-bolt one:
Another factoid - all these conversion axle shafts are made with 6x5.5" bolt patterns. The first 10.5" rear end I had was 5-lug. To make it 5-lug the 6 holes had to be plugged and redrilled to the 5x5 pattern. Of course you guys can skip that.
The first 10.5" rear I had was make by DriveTrain Direct. These people are in Corona, CA and are complete asses. If I hated you I might suggest you buy from them. One of the axle ends recently failed because the bearing SLID OFF the shaft with the collar and caused damage to the bearing, seal, housing, brakes, and the spanner nut that holds the whole thing in. It didn't come all the way out or it would have been a disaster. Anyway, these people's shop is just a few miles from here. I went down there with it and they wanted nothing to do with it or me. Nothing but excuses and whatever they could say to get me out of their lobby. Worthless, especially Pat...
The kit that was used to build that rear (call it v1.0) is the same one Drivetrain in Las Vegas uses for their conversion. The difference is that the people in NV are SKILLED and pationate about what they do, the morons in Corona CA cannot do anything more complicated than cookie-cutter Danas for Jeep guys any more - skill is gone, now only "migrant" labor. Like a 4L60-E, it can't come out any better than it's builder, so at the NV shop you might have a shot..
Here's a view of v1.0's end flange:
I did put a serious beating on the rear end for quite some time. The picture I have with the front wheels 8" off the ground was taken while abusing that rear end. What ultimately killed it was not the torque but sliding around corners.
I've learned a lot since then. If that 14-bolt in those pictures at the beginning of this thread is the conversion type that uses a spanner nut to hold the bearing in then I can tell you right now it's got possibly the same weakness. The bearing that kit uses has a two-piece outer race. If something in there moves even slightly that bearing comes apart.
Here is the spanner nut, seal, and bearing. Note this is a "wet-bearing" design meaning seal is on the outside and bearing gets gear lube.
And of course it failed:
Enter "v2.0" which is what I have now.
This one was built by Toms Differentials by a guy named Gary Downs. Gary is the long-time owner of The Gear Shop and this year bought Toms Differentials and merged his shop into the Tom's location in Paramount, CA. Tom moved on to other things out of state. The new business carries Gary's old name of "The Gear Shop" but he retains Tom's line of products.
The Gear Shop builds a pretty wicked 10.5" conversion of their own. His market has been old-school K-5 Blazers and older full-size SFA trucks though. He hasn't done anything with the newer trucks. In fact, say the word "metric" in that shop and you'll see a bunch of guys cringe.
That said, the conversions they do are sized for SAE 1980's stuff. That means 7/16" studs, larger hubs (about 90mm) as well as the appropriate brakes to go with it. Read: 11" Dual-Action JB6 Drums.
It is possible to put discs on these because they have a flange on the housing just like a 10-bolt. There are two bolt patters for the backing plate flange though and the one he uses on his kit is the one appropriate to 11" drums, not 10" drums. Finding out what the pattern is on the stock 10-bolt flange will determine compatibility.
I had to deal with the studs because I didn't realize when I ordered this it would have tiny SAE studs in it. My fault. I ended up having to weld on a backing plate to the axle flange with more perimeter material that the custom axles in order to stay strong after being drilled out to the larger 39/64th. holes for the 14mm x 1.5 studs. Gary may be persuaded to make the axle flanges a diameter large enough to acommodate the metric studs and he might also machine the hubs the smaller size of the metric convention. This is all minor stuff.
For me, v2.0 was left as 6-lug as I requested because it enabled me to run a larger version of the rims I really like, not available in 5-lug. I still had to convert it from SAE to Metric though.
The biggest difference in this 14-bolt conversion is the ends. This one uses real sealed bearing packed with their own gease. The seal is on the inside and the bearing is pressed on the axle shaft and backed up with a pressed-on collar. No gear lube touches these bearings, and the bearings are much larger. The whole thing is held in the tube by a plate held by the flange bolts. This is stout - like a Ford 9". This one isn't coming undone.
No reason why there couldn't be discs here instead of the drums.
This is what I had to do for the metric studs:
Making this work for discs will require no compromise on the hubs and the studs. If those can be right everything else should bolt into place. Honestly, the 11" JB6 brakes are far superior to the crappy GM discs on half-ton trucks. Put it this way, my "parking brake" can not only prevent the truck from rolling but also lock up the rear wheels if I push it en-route. Let's see GM rear discs pull THAT off. Downside is obviously they are VERY heavy, the whole thing is. For a 10-second work truck I would stick with the discs too. lol
07-14-2005, 02:50 AM
#14
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Originally Posted by James B.
Did my post two days ago kill this thread? Didn't mean to... Is there more or less interested in doing this conversion after reading any of that?
Oh and you probably sent a lot of people away scratching their heads going "huh."
07-15-2005, 12:16 PM
#15
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I see what you're saying about those bearings not working out. I spoke with the guy at driveline that builds them and he said they are looking to find a better bearing arrangement. good info
12-28-2010, 08:43 PM
#20
That rear end's been retired and scrapped. Gears and posi were salvaged, the rest got recycled.
When considering that from these two custom 10.5" rear ends I never got more than a year and a half's service from either between bearing failures, and then factoring in the $8,000 wasted, Ask yourself how important running 6-lug wheels really is.
The real solution (and my choice as well) is to install a full-float factory housing and hub and stuff it with a Posi and gears of your choice. Can't hurt full-float hubs no matter how ****-poorly you drive. That will leave you with the option of choosing a wheel type available in both 6 and 8-lug so you can mismatch them front to rear, or use 2500 components and replace the front spindles, brakes, and rotors from the ball-joints in. This would be additionally complicated by 4WD, but not impossible. That way 8-lug wheels can be installed all the way around.