Anyone Try An All Sonnax Stratigy
07-12-2009 | 10:50 AM
#11
My name is Gregg Nader, I am a product development specialist and represent Sonnax. This thread was just brought to my attention and I would like to respond to the comment of servo and harsh shifts.
First, with all things being equal, if you replace any servo with a larger one you will get firmer more aggressive shifts. The question is, what is too much? This depends on many variables (original calibration, vehicle, power, use, expectations etc.). For 2nd gear on a 4L60 & 4l60E there are essentially 6 different sized servos available. Four factory sizes, from smallest to largest (1-4cyl & V6; 2-V6 & V8 <most common; 3-a new one in 4L70 apps; 4-Corvette servo) and two after market, the Sonnax 77911-03K and ‘other’ that is a large diameter flat disc (I think made by a couple of suppliers). As you can see, with this many options, no one servo is best for all applications. For many common moderate performance applications, going up one size is usually enough.
The Sonnax 2nd servo is the only servo that is larger than any of the factory servos that still retains a factory style cushion spring and maintains a ‘hydraulic band release’ when going into 3rd. When used as an upgrade in a unit that originally had a ‘Corvette’ servo, the results typically are not excessive. Just a nice noticeable change in shift feel on the 1-2 & 2-3 that responds nicely to pressure, but does not change this so much as to radically alter the character of the vehicle.
So while any servo that is larger than the one it replaces can be harsh (depending on variables), the Sonnax servo will not be as harsh as the other servos that eliminate the factory style cushion spring and eliminate ‘hydraulic band release’ when going into 3rd.
...
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
First, with all things being equal, if you replace any servo with a larger one you will get firmer more aggressive shifts. The question is, what is too much? This depends on many variables (original calibration, vehicle, power, use, expectations etc.). For 2nd gear on a 4L60 & 4l60E there are essentially 6 different sized servos available. Four factory sizes, from smallest to largest (1-4cyl & V6; 2-V6 & V8 <most common; 3-a new one in 4L70 apps; 4-Corvette servo) and two after market, the Sonnax 77911-03K and ‘other’ that is a large diameter flat disc (I think made by a couple of suppliers). As you can see, with this many options, no one servo is best for all applications. For many common moderate performance applications, going up one size is usually enough.
The Sonnax 2nd servo is the only servo that is larger than any of the factory servos that still retains a factory style cushion spring and maintains a ‘hydraulic band release’ when going into 3rd. When used as an upgrade in a unit that originally had a ‘Corvette’ servo, the results typically are not excessive. Just a nice noticeable change in shift feel on the 1-2 & 2-3 that responds nicely to pressure, but does not change this so much as to radically alter the character of the vehicle.
So while any servo that is larger than the one it replaces can be harsh (depending on variables), the Sonnax servo will not be as harsh as the other servos that eliminate the factory style cushion spring and eliminate ‘hydraulic band release’ when going into 3rd.
...
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
...
Yes, trucks tend to shift harsher than cars, even when they have the exact same calibration inside the transmission. Going with larger 2nd servo (I believe you went up 2 sizes from stock) is even more challenging. Also I have noticed trucks have a wider range of shift feel even when stock, and this caries over to when they are re-calibrated.
Other kits out there have springs on both sides of the 1-2 accumulator piston that severely limit piston stroke and the inevitable is very harsh shifts most of the time. This is fine if that’s what the customer wants, or you have a very high stall converter (also less common in trucks). The Sonnax kit manages springs on both side of the piston, but does NOT limit piston stroke. This allows the accumulator to do its job. The results is less overall harshness on the 1-2, (if you have real power & traction) fewer broken parts and more acceptable drivability at low speeds, yet great shifts under load.
One of the main benefits of the Sonnax kit is it builds off of the original calibration in the transmission so results are more consistent across years and vehicle types.
Gregg
Yes, trucks tend to shift harsher than cars, even when they have the exact same calibration inside the transmission. Going with larger 2nd servo (I believe you went up 2 sizes from stock) is even more challenging. Also I have noticed trucks have a wider range of shift feel even when stock, and this caries over to when they are re-calibrated.
Other kits out there have springs on both sides of the 1-2 accumulator piston that severely limit piston stroke and the inevitable is very harsh shifts most of the time. This is fine if that’s what the customer wants, or you have a very high stall converter (also less common in trucks). The Sonnax kit manages springs on both side of the piston, but does NOT limit piston stroke. This allows the accumulator to do its job. The results is less overall harshness on the 1-2, (if you have real power & traction) fewer broken parts and more acceptable drivability at low speeds, yet great shifts under load.
One of the main benefits of the Sonnax kit is it builds off of the original calibration in the transmission so results are more consistent across years and vehicle types.
Gregg
The truck shifts great. The 1-2 is a tad aggressive at part throttle but not the annoying kind, not what I would call harsh. The 2-3-4 are precise. Quick and with the firmness the doctor ordered. I really, really like how quick the shifts get done.
There is a special place in the low speed part throttle that is firmer than everywhere else but it's just noticeable and not a worrisome thing.
...
All the talk about the super Holds being too firm or harsh has to be when they are applied with a Trans-go kit. Just my opinion from what I read.
...but in the trucks is where things get funny for him. So far we are sold on the sonnax performance pack kit and servo combo and he will be checking on me as I put some playtime miles on the tranny.
Do a Google on trucks with a harsh 1-2 and you will get an assortment of methods different folks use. FLT and Performa built must have some good research in dialing it out as I don't see many complaints there. But I do get lots of hits on the harsh 1-2 associated with the Trans-go being in the mix.
...
There is a special place in the low speed part throttle that is firmer than everywhere else but it's just noticeable and not a worrisome thing.
...
All the talk about the super Holds being too firm or harsh has to be when they are applied with a Trans-go kit. Just my opinion from what I read.
...but in the trucks is where things get funny for him. So far we are sold on the sonnax performance pack kit and servo combo and he will be checking on me as I put some playtime miles on the tranny.
Do a Google on trucks with a harsh 1-2 and you will get an assortment of methods different folks use. FLT and Performa built must have some good research in dialing it out as I don't see many complaints there. But I do get lots of hits on the harsh 1-2 associated with the Trans-go being in the mix.
...
On my 04, on a stock 60e, I believe my tune tweaked shift pts., but beyond that, I don't know what else w/. tranny. At light throttle, 1-2 is rather abrupt. Coming from a stop, apply more gas, & its not noticeable.
Everyone may be different in what they like for shifts. Myself, I don't need chirps or harshness, I just want firm, quick shifts, & longevity thru no broken parts.
07-12-2009 | 01:15 PM
#12
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 17
From: 30 Miles North of Atlanta
I am going to take my Tune tweaks up in a week or so and will report the effect. I would like to iron out that little 1-2 bump but not going to tear it down again to get at it.
07-26-2009 | 11:42 AM
#14
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 17
From: 30 Miles North of Atlanta
Break Out The Champange!
In summary I had a part throttle harsh 1-2 shift with a Trans-go HD2 kit build with a 4l65e conversion and performance frictions including better sunshell and such.
In and out of the shop, stock trans tune, modded trans tune, this spring, that spring, blah blah, frustration galore. The guys in the shop never dealt with anything like it. They build street and strip race car 4l60e's with great success but my deal stumped them.
Update, I'm good to go. No Trans-go stuff, all Sonnax valve body parts (Performance Pack ) & configs with both super hold servos. Trans tuned to stock configs as Sonnax intended for the PP to be applied to.
Shifts like a dream! Broke out the Champagne!
Quick and firm without being rude at part throttle and great @ WOT. NO MORE PART THROTTLE HARSH 1-2!
An experienced rodder will notice it has trans mods in every shifting situation but granny will not.
It seems to know what I want according to my pedal position.
There is nothing to make me take notice of the transmission as I drive around anymore. It's no longer an issue, I can now move on.
As for the super hold Servos having a harsh reputation, not so at my house.
Great Turn Key Kit Sonnax! Put it all in a box and take it to Trans-go in the market place.
In and out of the shop, stock trans tune, modded trans tune, this spring, that spring, blah blah, frustration galore. The guys in the shop never dealt with anything like it. They build street and strip race car 4l60e's with great success but my deal stumped them.
Update, I'm good to go. No Trans-go stuff, all Sonnax valve body parts (Performance Pack ) & configs with both super hold servos. Trans tuned to stock configs as Sonnax intended for the PP to be applied to.
Shifts like a dream! Broke out the Champagne!
Quick and firm without being rude at part throttle and great @ WOT. NO MORE PART THROTTLE HARSH 1-2!
An experienced rodder will notice it has trans mods in every shifting situation but granny will not.
It seems to know what I want according to my pedal position.
There is nothing to make me take notice of the transmission as I drive around anymore. It's no longer an issue, I can now move on.
As for the super hold Servos having a harsh reputation, not so at my house.
Great Turn Key Kit Sonnax! Put it all in a box and take it to Trans-go in the market place.
07-27-2009 | 11:07 AM
#15
Teching In
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
therock,
I am glad to hear your comments and see this kit being appreciated for its benefits. As one other user said, “you can have you cake and eat it too”.
Anyway, glad you are back to liking your ride. . . just don’t drive after drinking the bubbly (VBG).
Regards,
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
I am glad to hear your comments and see this kit being appreciated for its benefits. As one other user said, “you can have you cake and eat it too”.
Anyway, glad you are back to liking your ride. . . just don’t drive after drinking the bubbly (VBG).
Regards,
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
07-27-2009 | 11:21 AM
#16
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 17
From: 30 Miles North of Atlanta
therock,
I am glad to hear your comments and see this kit being appreciated for its benefits. As one other user said, “you can have you cake and eat it too”.
Anyway, glad you are back to liking your ride. . . just don’t drive after drinking the bubbly (VBG).
Regards,
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
I am glad to hear your comments and see this kit being appreciated for its benefits. As one other user said, “you can have you cake and eat it too”.
Anyway, glad you are back to liking your ride. . . just don’t drive after drinking the bubbly (VBG).
Regards,
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
Thank Greg. Please stick around. Your support here is a real benefit. You should talk to your boss for a sponsors deal here. But if not, hey, we don't want to run you off.
The trans is just a dream! I was looking forward to doing the R&D with you but it's not needed here.
I have HPTuners Pro now so if I can experiment a bit settings wise for you just email me.
07-28-2009 | 11:44 PM
#17
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
From: Austin, TX
09-01-2009 | 05:21 PM
#18
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
great thread guys!!! i'm VERY interested in building up my 4l60e the same way you did, i always like what i read about sonnax parts and it seems like they've really done their research for us to reap the rewards. if it's not too much trouble, does anyone (therock) have a full part list for this build? sonnax parts i see are posted, but i'm interested in the gm numbers for the planetaries, input shaft, sunshell etc....??? THANKS A TON if you guys can be of any help...hopefully i can return the favor someday
09-01-2009 | 09:49 PM
#19
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,730
Likes: 17
From: 30 Miles North of Atlanta
Does anyone (therock) have a full part list for this build? sonnax parts i see are posted, but i'm interested in the gm numbers for the planetaries, input shaft, sunshell etc....??? THANKS A TON if you guys can be of any help...hopefully i can return the favor someday
In a nut shell we used all GM parts but for the frictions, clutches & bands by Borg-Warner and the like. I know he went with wider bands and added the extra plates to he 3-4. The sun-shell was a GM upgrade also. I'm not sure if it was a 4l65e spec part. For some reason he dislikes the "Beast" sun-shell. I told him if it was the cash I would pay it but he went into a wear pattern he has seen and does not like. So we went to a thicker and better made GM unit he has good results with. He showed me both of them to compare and it's definitely a heavier duty sunshell than the OE.
The link below is an in depth description of the 4l65e specs. They state the valve body got some changes too but we did not use a 4l65e VB. We just went with a new original VB and drilled it as instructed by Sonnax. He did everything else.
4l60_4l65e
09-03-2009 | 12:20 AM
#20
The link below is an in depth description of the 4l65e specs. They state the valve body got some changes too but we did not use a 4l65e VB. We just went with a new original VB and drilled it as instructed by Sonnax. He did everything else.
4l60_4l65e
4l60_4l65e
