Best way to address 1/2 shift problem
06-14-2011 | 11:05 AM
#11
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From: Utica, MI
My concern is more of a delay going into drive. The drum is new from GM btw. Not sure if the ck ball is still there.
With regards to the tune, that may be it right there. I currently have elevated pressures across the whole range (didn't realize that---just thought I had elevated pressures from about 80% up). My pressures are 5-6% in the lower 2/3 of the table and 15-30% higher in the last 1/3 of the table. My shift times have been decreased as well across the board. I'm going to retune those parts and I'll post up the results. Thanks.
With regards to the tune, that may be it right there. I currently have elevated pressures across the whole range (didn't realize that---just thought I had elevated pressures from about 80% up). My pressures are 5-6% in the lower 2/3 of the table and 15-30% higher in the last 1/3 of the table. My shift times have been decreased as well across the board. I'm going to retune those parts and I'll post up the results. Thanks.
The pressures should not jump up to max psi without being past 3/4 throttle IMO. That might have something to do with your tune if you have one done that elevates line pressure. If this is the case set the force motor tables back to stock to see if it helps any. The reverse issue is kind of a normal problem for these units IMO. I think one issue to always look at is the inside of the reverse input drum where the cushion plate rides in the bottom of the drum. On used drums you will see marks in the drum where this plate rides. I feel that this plate in some cases sticks on the apply creating the delay. Another thing is if the bushings are worn in the drum. This might effect the oil pressure for the circuit when trying to apply the sealing rings and might contribute to this issue as well. One thing I have done for years is remove a check ball from the rear of the case in the low/reverse piston area. This is something builders have been doing since the days of the 700r4. I personally do not believe this will help with a park to reverse apply delay on a 60e but will help in a drive to reverse apply. Reason being in park the low clutch is already applied so we are basically waiting on the reverse input clutch to engage. Vince
06-14-2011 | 02:53 PM
#12
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Well, I went in today and put the pump pressure table back to stock settings, hardly a difference at that point. Then put the desired shift timing settings back to stock, hardly a difference at that point. Then I went ahead and backed down the 1/2 shift pressure table. Ended up with a reduction of 25-30% at lower loads and 10% up top for the 1/2 shift.
At low speeds/very light loads the shifts felt a little sloppy or delayed so I reset the desired shift times back to where I had them previously (shorter vs. the stock settings). Felt much crisper without being harsh----shifts feel great now!!!
Is this an ok route to go or should I have just put the vette servo back in? Seems like a bunch of wasted money (billet servo) in the end......
At low speeds/very light loads the shifts felt a little sloppy or delayed so I reset the desired shift times back to where I had them previously (shorter vs. the stock settings). Felt much crisper without being harsh----shifts feel great now!!!
Is this an ok route to go or should I have just put the vette servo back in? Seems like a bunch of wasted money (billet servo) in the end......
I honestly have only installed one of these kits and the 1-2 shift was one of the concerns we had as well when we finished the install of this kit. There are a few things to look at that might be effecting the 1-2 shift. One would be line pressure when the shift happens. Also with that servo did the builder scotch bright the bore for the second servo d-rings and also the accumulator piston? Glazed bores and rubber seals do weird stuff with the function of pistons using rubber seals. Another thing to look at is the 1-2 accumulator valve and sleeve in the valve body to make sure its not sticking. Also make sure that the sleeve was not installed upside down blocking accumulator oil function. The easiest way to try to tone it down would probably install the factory 1-2 accumulator springs set ups in the accumulator housing and the valve body. If you want to try to tune it out with your tuning software I guess that would work as well. I'm going to send an email to a guy I know to see what his thoughts are here on your issue. Maybe Gregg will chime in here to give his expertise here! Vince
06-14-2011 | 06:38 PM
#13
"The shift pressure was dropped very slightly and torque management turned up very slightly, although it may be touching the rev limiter"
That all made sense vince thanks, i had thought about the weight thing before, but not the stock converter contributing to it also..
Here is another question i will throw out there, is lurching forward on start up normal? Would raised pressure have anything to do with it?
Last edited by skolman91; 06-14-2011 at 06:59 PM.
06-14-2011 | 09:43 PM
#14
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From: Utica, MI
Bingo, sure sounded like torque management. I remember the first time I experienced torque management. It was a brand new 1999 Silverado. I thought I broke it at first after a WOT 1/2 shift---lol!
Harsh shifts aren't good for anything and will break hard parts. It doesn't sound like you have a billet output so I'm sure your guy was trying to tone things down for that. Flip side, you don't get enough apply and slip the band, you're DONE! My experience has been that it will never shift the same. May not fail outright, but won't be the same---sucks! I'm sure he was avoiding that route too---lol! A little less pressure and some torque management = problem solved Seriously, a little bid of torque management is a good thing if you aren't running billet output shafts and upgraded parts. Just my .02
Harsh shifts aren't good for anything and will break hard parts. It doesn't sound like you have a billet output so I'm sure your guy was trying to tone things down for that. Flip side, you don't get enough apply and slip the band, you're DONE! My experience has been that it will never shift the same. May not fail outright, but won't be the same---sucks! I'm sure he was avoiding that route too---lol! A little less pressure and some torque management = problem solved
Seriously, a little bid of torque management is a good thing if you aren't running billet output shafts and upgraded parts. Just my .02This is the response i got..
So not sure what to think, I know one thing tho the last time the delay happened made my auto feel like a stick gear change..
That all made sense vince thanks, i had thought about the weight thing before, but not the stock converter contributing to it also..
Here is another question i will throw out there, is lurching forward on start up normal? Would raised pressure have anything to do with it?
So not sure what to think, I know one thing tho the last time the delay happened made my auto feel like a stick gear change..
That all made sense vince thanks, i had thought about the weight thing before, but not the stock converter contributing to it also..
Here is another question i will throw out there, is lurching forward on start up normal? Would raised pressure have anything to do with it?
06-15-2011 | 12:26 AM
#15
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Guys,
Sorry for chiming in so late. Compared to the HD2 kit, the Sonnax Performance Pack will give you smoother low speed and coast-down shifts and the 1-2, 2-3 & 3-4 upshifts will be more consistent with each other and get progressively firmer with load.
For your 1-2 issue sounds like you may have found a good balance with your tune. I can add a couple of things regarding the servo. . .First, did you say you had the vette servo in there before? Trucks seem to be more sensitive to larger servo than cars. I will never say the Sonnax billet servo is best for all applications. There is the original size, the newer 4L70 size, the vette size, then the larger Sonnax servo. Here is a link that describes the original servo options http://www.sonnax.com/publications/t...-for-the-4l60e These and the Sonnax billet servo are the only choices for servo that keep a cushion spring and hydraulically release and the Sonnax is the only one that is larger than factory. My suggestion would be to leave the VB and accumulator mods, set your tune to factory pressures, then swap servos if need be to get the shift you are after. Once done with that then tweak you tune for any final adjustments. I would not leave any of your pressures lower than the original settings.
More on billet servos. . . maybe this has been covered here before, there are a couple of places that offer an even bigger billet servo, but that style eliminates the cushion spring and does not hydraulically release like the other options. Maybe Vince can comment if many of the builders are still using this older design. Even though called “billet” they are significantly different from the Sonnax part and the difference is worth understanding if you deal with these much.
I hope this info helps,
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
Sorry for chiming in so late. Compared to the HD2 kit, the Sonnax Performance Pack will give you smoother low speed and coast-down shifts and the 1-2, 2-3 & 3-4 upshifts will be more consistent with each other and get progressively firmer with load.
For your 1-2 issue sounds like you may have found a good balance with your tune. I can add a couple of things regarding the servo. . .First, did you say you had the vette servo in there before? Trucks seem to be more sensitive to larger servo than cars. I will never say the Sonnax billet servo is best for all applications. There is the original size, the newer 4L70 size, the vette size, then the larger Sonnax servo. Here is a link that describes the original servo options http://www.sonnax.com/publications/t...-for-the-4l60e These and the Sonnax billet servo are the only choices for servo that keep a cushion spring and hydraulically release and the Sonnax is the only one that is larger than factory. My suggestion would be to leave the VB and accumulator mods, set your tune to factory pressures, then swap servos if need be to get the shift you are after. Once done with that then tweak you tune for any final adjustments. I would not leave any of your pressures lower than the original settings.
More on billet servos. . . maybe this has been covered here before, there are a couple of places that offer an even bigger billet servo, but that style eliminates the cushion spring and does not hydraulically release like the other options. Maybe Vince can comment if many of the builders are still using this older design. Even though called “billet” they are significantly different from the Sonnax part and the difference is worth understanding if you deal with these much.
I hope this info helps,
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
06-15-2011 | 12:44 AM
#16
Teching In
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 25
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[QUOTE=slowfive0;4717201]
Also, the trans has a tad bit of delay when going from reverse to drive (wasn't like that before). It's not much (maybe a second), but noticeable..... QUOTE]
Do you know if any modifications were made to your input housing ?
Also, was this current work done on a stock trans or one that already had a different (T-Go) kit in it before?
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
Also, the trans has a tad bit of delay when going from reverse to drive (wasn't like that before). It's not much (maybe a second), but noticeable..... QUOTE]
Do you know if any modifications were made to your input housing ?
Also, was this current work done on a stock trans or one that already had a different (T-Go) kit in it before?
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
06-15-2011 | 04:21 AM
#17
And i told him what to tune in for me, he didnt suggest a thing to me tq mg or pressure wise.. Still kinda curious what kind of pressures im running since i have no idea whats done SK wise..
06-15-2011 | 07:56 AM
#18
Gregg first off I want to say thank you for your time as always!
OK I'll say it again as Ive said in the past. The larger servo "mentioned" is the superior brand servo. I used these back in the day and had issues with downshift clunks, broken bands, harsh shifts, broken hard parts.....etc. I honestly think these things are killers on transmission parts and will never use nor suggest using them! They are cheap and that is why most guys will use them. Personally I scrap them! I know Gregg is not here to bash his competition but IMO stay away from these things. The sonnax piece is a good piece however like anything else I believe it has its place.
More on billet servos. . . maybe this has been covered here before, there are a couple of places that offer an even bigger billet servo, but that style eliminates the cushion spring and does not hydraulically release like the other options. Maybe Vince can comment if many of the builders are still using this older design. Even though called “billet” they are significantly different from the Sonnax part and the difference is worth understanding if you deal with these much.
I hope this info helps,
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
I hope this info helps,
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
06-15-2011 | 10:34 PM
#19
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Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Utica, MI
The transmission shifts great in all gears (up and down) except for the 1/2. It is an extremely heavy shift under moderate to heavy throttle. The truck being 5500 plus AWD doesn't help either. I currently have my pump pressures set to stock settings in the tune. To get the 1//2 shift to a comfortable level, I had to reduce the pressures on the 1/2 shift about 25-30 percent in the low load areas and 10 percent at WOT (still pretty stiff shift). Honestly, I could easily take out more across the range to get the shifts where I feel they should be (crisp, but not harsh), but I don't want to chance slipping the band.
I had a corvette servo in there and it felt great. A little history: The trans was originally built by the Toy Shop in CA and had a vette servo, valve body mods, billet shaft, etc and worked great for over a year. Recently, I had a transfer case failure as well as u-joint failure and was concerned about the health of the trans. This past winter (when the truck was really making a lot of power) the 1/2 shift hadn't been 100%, so we pulled it to ck it out and also so I could have the converter tightened a little. Found, some signs of slippage in the forward clutch, some wear on some of the bushings and hard parts, partially burnt band and some other things. The trans had felt fine other then the 1/2 shift when it was really cold, but I guess it was not 100%. Decided to rebuild it with a new drum, wide carbon band, new clutches, billet input/output shafts, etc. My builder used pretty much the Sonnax catalog on it (shift kit, revised sunshell, valves, mods, etc) and I'm happy with the way it drives. Just wish I had kept the Corvette servo---lol!
Pressures are in the 225psi range under load.
It sounds like I need to go back to the Corvette servo........Again thank you for responding and I look forward to your thoughts on this. Take care.
I had a corvette servo in there and it felt great. A little history: The trans was originally built by the Toy Shop in CA and had a vette servo, valve body mods, billet shaft, etc and worked great for over a year. Recently, I had a transfer case failure as well as u-joint failure and was concerned about the health of the trans. This past winter (when the truck was really making a lot of power) the 1/2 shift hadn't been 100%, so we pulled it to ck it out and also so I could have the converter tightened a little. Found, some signs of slippage in the forward clutch, some wear on some of the bushings and hard parts, partially burnt band and some other things. The trans had felt fine other then the 1/2 shift when it was really cold, but I guess it was not 100%. Decided to rebuild it with a new drum, wide carbon band, new clutches, billet input/output shafts, etc. My builder used pretty much the Sonnax catalog on it (shift kit, revised sunshell, valves, mods, etc) and I'm happy with the way it drives. Just wish I had kept the Corvette servo---lol!
Pressures are in the 225psi range under load.
It sounds like I need to go back to the Corvette servo........Again thank you for responding and I look forward to your thoughts on this. Take care.
Guys,
Sorry for chiming in so late. Compared to the HD2 kit, the Sonnax Performance Pack will give you smoother low speed and coast-down shifts and the 1-2, 2-3 & 3-4 upshifts will be more consistent with each other and get progressively firmer with load.
For your 1-2 issue sounds like you may have found a good balance with your tune. I can add a couple of things regarding the servo. . .First, did you say you had the vette servo in there before? Trucks seem to be more sensitive to larger servo than cars. I will never say the Sonnax billet servo is best for all applications. There is the original size, the newer 4L70 size, the vette size, then the larger Sonnax servo. Here is a link that describes the original servo options http://www.sonnax.com/publications/t...-for-the-4l60e These and the Sonnax billet servo are the only choices for servo that keep a cushion spring and hydraulically release and the Sonnax is the only one that is larger than factory. My suggestion would be to leave the VB and accumulator mods, set your tune to factory pressures, then swap servos if need be to get the shift you are after. Once done with that then tweak you tune for any final adjustments. I would not leave any of your pressures lower than the original settings.
More on billet servos. . . maybe this has been covered here before, there are a couple of places that offer an even bigger billet servo, but that style eliminates the cushion spring and does not hydraulically release like the other options. Maybe Vince can comment if many of the builders are still using this older design. Even though called “billet” they are significantly different from the Sonnax part and the difference is worth understanding if you deal with these much.
I hope this info helps,
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
Sorry for chiming in so late. Compared to the HD2 kit, the Sonnax Performance Pack will give you smoother low speed and coast-down shifts and the 1-2, 2-3 & 3-4 upshifts will be more consistent with each other and get progressively firmer with load.
For your 1-2 issue sounds like you may have found a good balance with your tune. I can add a couple of things regarding the servo. . .First, did you say you had the vette servo in there before? Trucks seem to be more sensitive to larger servo than cars. I will never say the Sonnax billet servo is best for all applications. There is the original size, the newer 4L70 size, the vette size, then the larger Sonnax servo. Here is a link that describes the original servo options http://www.sonnax.com/publications/t...-for-the-4l60e These and the Sonnax billet servo are the only choices for servo that keep a cushion spring and hydraulically release and the Sonnax is the only one that is larger than factory. My suggestion would be to leave the VB and accumulator mods, set your tune to factory pressures, then swap servos if need be to get the shift you are after. Once done with that then tweak you tune for any final adjustments. I would not leave any of your pressures lower than the original settings.
More on billet servos. . . maybe this has been covered here before, there are a couple of places that offer an even bigger billet servo, but that style eliminates the cushion spring and does not hydraulically release like the other options. Maybe Vince can comment if many of the builders are still using this older design. Even though called “billet” they are significantly different from the Sonnax part and the difference is worth understanding if you deal with these much.
I hope this info helps,
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
06-15-2011 | 10:41 PM
#20
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TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Utica, MI
The input housing had a billet shaft from RPM pressed into it along with the collar that Sonnax sells. I remember my builder remarking on how hard it was to press the shaft in. He said it went in much harder then the shafts he usually presses in. Also, there was no master spline so they had to be careful to line up the oil holes. I could swear he mentioned something about the check ball (not the one in the end of the input shaft for TCC) but not 100%. I can find out if you think that is something.....?
Also, since the trans was a previous built unit, he replaced the separator plate so he could ensure the hole sizes were factory again before doing any mods. I know he said he was going to keep them stock or on the small side to try and prevent a harsh shift, but he would increase the holding power with a wider band, bigger servo, etc. Not sure if he drilled anything out in the plate or not. I know none of the accumulators are blocked or anything like that......
Thanks again for your help on this
QUOTE=Gregg Nader;4717778]
Also, since the trans was a previous built unit, he replaced the separator plate so he could ensure the hole sizes were factory again before doing any mods. I know he said he was going to keep them stock or on the small side to try and prevent a harsh shift, but he would increase the holding power with a wider band, bigger servo, etc. Not sure if he drilled anything out in the plate or not. I know none of the accumulators are blocked or anything like that......
Thanks again for your help on this
QUOTE=Gregg Nader;4717778]
Also, the trans has a tad bit of delay when going from reverse to drive (wasn't like that before). It's not much (maybe a second), but noticeable..... QUOTE]
Do you know if any modifications were made to your input housing ?
Also, was this current work done on a stock trans or one that already had a different (T-Go) kit in it before?
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech
Do you know if any modifications were made to your input housing ?
Also, was this current work done on a stock trans or one that already had a different (T-Go) kit in it before?
Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech