Broken 80e!
07-21-2011, 10:26 AM
#111
That is true, no argument there...I have seen my fair share of asinine "performance" parts. But I doubt the engineers down at Alto are a bunch of lumbering ogres who slap **** together and send it out to be used in high-power, high-abuse applications.
Bottom line is there is nothing to lose with going with the aftermarket clutches, only to gain.
Bottom line is there is nothing to lose with going with the aftermarket clutches, only to gain.
Hey I have some ice in Antarctica I want to sell you, shoot me a PM, but dont worry, its better than everyone elses frozen water.
07-21-2011, 10:52 AM
#112
I don't have a crystal ball to see the failure so I don't try to answer that, I did however try to give some good advice based on years of experience with various styles of clutch material. It obviously fell upon deaf ears but that's OK, you'll eventually get tired of posting pics of failed transmissions and learn to listen to those who know.
There's nothing" wrong" with Alto Red frictions, they are marginally better than a tan friction, they just simply don't compare to the HE material.
Go back about 15 years and look at what was going on with 700R4s and 4L60Es (and still is), 3-4 clutches failing. Every builder out there tried the Alto Powerpack with 9 frictions and guess what, we all got to try it a few times. They didn't survive any better than stock.
GM was having warranty issues with them.
What was their answer?
What kind of material did they have developed for the for this problem clutch?
If reds were so good, why wouldn't GM just buy something that was already available?
Good luck with it,
looks as if you'll need it and the friction material is the last of your concerns anyway.
Last edited by silver-mod-o; 07-21-2011 at 07:46 PM.
07-21-2011, 12:11 PM
#114
I asked the dude who is helping me with the transmission about that...he agrees that the stock clutches are just as good as the reds. But only until the fluid heats up. After that the red altos show their ability over the stockers.
My interpretation of this is that the reds maintain a higher coefficient of static friction under the added load of a race application, which heats up the transmission fluid a lot more. Nobody would put them in their transmissions, much less manufacture those clutches if they were utterly useless
My interpretation of this is that the reds maintain a higher coefficient of static friction under the added load of a race application, which heats up the transmission fluid a lot more. Nobody would put them in their transmissions, much less manufacture those clutches if they were utterly useless
Nobody else has torn the transmission down and seen the root cause of the failure. Looking at the internals I would suggest paying someone that has a clue to build it instead of whatever monkey put it together.
I don't have a crystal ball to see the failure so I don't try to answer that, I did however try to give some good advice based on years of experience with various styles of clutch material. It obviously fell upon deaf ears but that's OK, you'll eventually get tired of posting pics of failed transmissions and learn to listen to those who know.
There's nothing" wrong" with Alto Red frictions, they are marginally better than a tan friction, they just simply don't compare to the HE material.
Go back about 15 years and look at what was going on with 700R4s and 4L60Es (and still is), 3-4 clutches failing. Every builder out there tried the Alto Powerpack with 9 frictions and guess what, we all got to try it a few times. They didn't survive any better than stock.
GM was having warranty issues with them.
What was their answer?
What kind of material did they have developed for the for this problem clutch?
If reds were so good, why wouldn't GM just buy something that was already available?
Good luck with it,
looks as if you'll need it and the friction material is the last of your concerns anyway.
I don't have a crystal ball to see the failure so I don't try to answer that, I did however try to give some good advice based on years of experience with various styles of clutch material. It obviously fell upon deaf ears but that's OK, you'll eventually get tired of posting pics of failed transmissions and learn to listen to those who know.
There's nothing" wrong" with Alto Red frictions, they are marginally better than a tan friction, they just simply don't compare to the HE material.
Go back about 15 years and look at what was going on with 700R4s and 4L60Es (and still is), 3-4 clutches failing. Every builder out there tried the Alto Powerpack with 9 frictions and guess what, we all got to try it a few times. They didn't survive any better than stock.
GM was having warranty issues with them.
What was their answer?
What kind of material did they have developed for the for this problem clutch?
If reds were so good, why wouldn't GM just buy something that was already available?
Good luck with it,
looks as if you'll need it and the friction material is the last of your concerns anyway.
The clutches weren't the problem in the first place. It was converter material that got conveniently distributed throughout the transmission; I would have appreciate some 'good advice based on years of experience' when I was looking for the problem then. First time tearing it apart revealed that the stock clutches were burned down to the steel backing, and there was no material in the pan from it so it had been running on burned clutches for a while. For the record, I bought new clutches yesterday. Not 15 years ago.
07-21-2011, 01:55 PM
#116
I have experienced quite the opposite, actually. In reading threads from years past, there are many who don't post here any more because they share my same critical mindset. I, along with relatively few others, don't accept everything I read as gospel just because some person who has been doing it for years says its the way to do it. The guy who rebuilt my transmission twice has 34 years of experience under his belt, and you can see how far that's gotten me. Considering that, you'll have to beg my pardon for not taking Jake's Performance's advice and running with it.
07-21-2011, 02:23 PM
#117
Jake and Vince both have reputations built on the units they have running out there. I'm pretty sure two very reputable national builders who have vehicles running well the 1000rw mark know a little bit. Along with Eric M. who builds some of the best racing transmissions out there all recommend bw clutches I'd think that's enough to warrant heeding their advice.
You just need to realize that these knowledgeable guys get nothing out of helping you fix a unit that isn't theirs but they help because they're good people. Then you totally ignore do you think they're going to help you again in the future should you need it?
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder for whatever reason and that's you perogative, just be aware of the consequences. I know you've bent Vince's ear endlessly over this then you do the exact opposite of what he recommends how do you think that makes you look?
Good luck, I hope your internet reading holds true but my years of experience has taught me that actual real world experience is above and beyond what you will hear from internet racers.
You just need to realize that these knowledgeable guys get nothing out of helping you fix a unit that isn't theirs but they help because they're good people. Then you totally ignore do you think they're going to help you again in the future should you need it?
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder for whatever reason and that's you perogative, just be aware of the consequences. I know you've bent Vince's ear endlessly over this then you do the exact opposite of what he recommends how do you think that makes you look?
Good luck, I hope your internet reading holds true but my years of experience has taught me that actual real world experience is above and beyond what you will hear from internet racers.
Last edited by Vince B; 07-21-2011 at 07:14 PM.
07-21-2011, 04:18 PM
#118
you said it yourself man... your guy there couldnt help you out.
If I were you I'd be looking to these guys for help/advise... not asking them, them taking their time to post up info and experiences to help YOU... and you basically saying, "thats nice, but I'll do it my way"
If youve got that much faith in your new guy, have him post up his ideas and theories. I'm all for learning but I want to know why... If nothing else that will tell everyone if these are your own ideas or someone else's. I'm not trying to bust your ***** dude but it just really isnt the way to do things on a forum where everybody offers tons of great free advise.
If I were you I'd be looking to these guys for help/advise... not asking them, them taking their time to post up info and experiences to help YOU... and you basically saying, "thats nice, but I'll do it my way"
If youve got that much faith in your new guy, have him post up his ideas and theories. I'm all for learning but I want to know why... If nothing else that will tell everyone if these are your own ideas or someone else's. I'm not trying to bust your ***** dude but it just really isnt the way to do things on a forum where everybody offers tons of great free advise.
07-21-2011, 06:15 PM
#119
Jake and Vince both have reputations built on the units they have running out there. I'm pretty sure two very reputable national builders who have vehicles running well the 1000rw mark know a little bit. Along with Eric Merchant who builds some of the best racing transmissions out there all recommend bw clutches I'd think that's enough to warrant heeding their advice.
You just need to realize that these knowledgeable guys get nothing out of helping you fix a unit that isn't theirs but they help because they're good people. Then you totally ignore do you think they're going to help you again in the future should you need it?
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder for whatever reason and that's you perogative, just be aware of the consequences. I know you've bent Vince's ear endlessly over this then you do the exact opposite of what he recommends how do you think that makes you look?
Good luck, I hope your internet reading holds true but my years of experience has taught me that actual real world experience is above and beyond what you will hear from internet racers.
You just need to realize that these knowledgeable guys get nothing out of helping you fix a unit that isn't theirs but they help because they're good people. Then you totally ignore do you think they're going to help you again in the future should you need it?
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder for whatever reason and that's you perogative, just be aware of the consequences. I know you've bent Vince's ear endlessly over this then you do the exact opposite of what he recommends how do you think that makes you look?
Good luck, I hope your internet reading holds true but my years of experience has taught me that actual real world experience is above and beyond what you will hear from internet racers.
For what its worth, I haven't done much internet reading about rebuilding transmissions. I have talked to many builders directly about it. The unanimous recommendation, save for this forum, was to use the aftermarket red clutches. So what did I do? Heed their advice...
you said it yourself man... your guy there couldnt help you out.
If I were you I'd be looking to these guys for help/advise... not asking them, them taking their time to post up info and experiences to help YOU... and you basically saying, "thats nice, but I'll do it my way"
If youve got that much faith in your new guy, have him post up his ideas and theories. I'm all for learning but I want to know why... If nothing else that will tell everyone if these are your own ideas or someone else's. I'm not trying to bust your ***** dude but it just really isnt the way to do things on a forum where everybody offers tons of great free advise.
If I were you I'd be looking to these guys for help/advise... not asking them, them taking their time to post up info and experiences to help YOU... and you basically saying, "thats nice, but I'll do it my way"
If youve got that much faith in your new guy, have him post up his ideas and theories. I'm all for learning but I want to know why... If nothing else that will tell everyone if these are your own ideas or someone else's. I'm not trying to bust your ***** dude but it just really isnt the way to do things on a forum where everybody offers tons of great free advise.
I did ask him about the stock vs alto clutches, and I posted up what he said. They work the same until the fluid heats up, and then the stock ones show their weakness. I don't intend on running the transmission at some ridiculous temperature, but a little peace of mind is nice. I have half a mind to test these clutches in a way that I can attach numbers to, so I may just do that in the near future.
...
Bottom line is it wasn't the clutches causing issues in the first place; it should not have been brought up anyway. This truck will never make enough power to put stock clutches to the test, much less the aftermarket ones, so it really doesn't matter.
07-21-2011, 07:47 PM
#120
If you had actually read the thread instead of posting up your retorts, you would have noticed that I mentioned more than once that someone else was doing it this time. Not only that, but I also asked the new builder what he thought about your previous comment, and he explained it. Read above if you actually care to have a conversation about it; otherwise I will just assume you are arguing for the sake of arguing, or arguing to sell your own product...
The clutches weren't the problem in the first place. It was converter material that got conveniently distributed throughout the transmission; I would have appreciate some 'good advice based on years of experience' when I was looking for the problem then. First time tearing it apart revealed that the stock clutches were burned down to the steel backing, and there was no material in the pan from it so it had been running on burned clutches for a while. For the record, I bought new clutches yesterday. Not 15 years ago.
The clutches weren't the problem in the first place. It was converter material that got conveniently distributed throughout the transmission; I would have appreciate some 'good advice based on years of experience' when I was looking for the problem then. First time tearing it apart revealed that the stock clutches were burned down to the steel backing, and there was no material in the pan from it so it had been running on burned clutches for a while. For the record, I bought new clutches yesterday. Not 15 years ago.
Please show me where I posted offering ANY of my parts or services?
My intent was to help you save money and not buy into the marketing hype. It was obviously a waste of time.
I am at the top of the game with 4L80E's. I designed the fastest releasing transbrake on the market as well as our own design valve body seperator plate and several other 4L80E parts you can't get elsewhere.
I have cars running 1400+ HP with my units and guess what, no red clutches.
Almost every unit we send out now is an 800+ HP/TQ application. We SPECILAIZE in performance units. We DON'T run a run of the mill transmission shop where we rebuild whatever comes in the door. We rarely even install the transmissions.
That's a key difference between the regular transmission shop that does everyday rebuilds and the performance shop that everything that goes out the door is going under the gun.
On a 400-500 HP combo, a good rebuilder or garage builder can get it right most of the time. It doesn't matter what you use for clutch material in those cases, anything will work as long as the hydraulics are correct.
When you start dealing with 1400+ HP, even when the hydraulics are correct, the clutches take a beating on every shift due to pure raw power and high rpms. This is when you learn what works and what doesn't. This is what my experience is based on.
I don't really feel the need to qualify my statements. I'm not "biased" against any brand. I think I stated clearly the Alto clutches aren't "bad", they just aren't as good as a High Energy material.
If you call the builders who are the top of their game such as FLT or RPM, Extreme Automatics, Rossler, etc and can get them to tell you what they use, I think you'll find a trend.
I disagree with your builder about the heat statement. The reds will be BLACK and slipping and the HE's will still be alive. I have direct experience with both of these clutches in a failure mode and have seen what they do. It's very hard to completely kill a HE clutch, even when they have gotten HOT. The carbon graphite based material doesn't burn like paper (tan and red).
The HE's were developed to go in GM's 4L60 series units and take the heat and live in a 3-4 clutch pack.
The good thing is, GM and other manufacturers adopted the material for other applications, and now builders have an excellent option that is very reasonably priced due to economies of scale.
You aren't paying for advertisement, low volume production costs, aftermarket markup, etc when you buy an OEM clutch.
I don't care what you do or use in the transmission, and based on this thread I would not want you as a customer. My intent was to help but in this case the gift horse was kicked in the mouth.
Along the way to where I am now I had some very knowledgeable people mentor me and help me when I was over my head getting my *** kicked by some problem child transmission. They did it for free and nowadays I often give them tips. The student teaching the teacher.
Every now and then I feel compelled to help others (Google jakeshoe and see how many times I've helped others over the years on various forums). Nowadays my time is limited because I have a 2-4 week backlog on trans builds with myself and 2 other builders. I shouldn't even waste my time online, and this thread has been a good reminder that I should just charge for my time and knowledge and let all the internet experts continue to wallow around in their feces of misinformation.
What type of transmission does your builder specialize in?
What parts has he designed?
Good luck with it.
Last edited by silver-mod-o; 07-21-2011 at 07:58 PM.