pictures of transmission (60e)
08-21-2006, 02:09 PM
#31
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good deal man, i already have the wire in the engine bay so i think ill just lengthen it a little and drop it down there.
08-21-2006, 03:17 PM
#32
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just put the temp gauge in the line pressure port...sorry to all the nay sayers about this but its the quickest and easiest and im not TOO concerned with accuracy because the temp will be what it will be no matter what, i just want a general idea. pretty easy, didnt lose any fluid. started it up and it didnt leak that i could tell. took about thirty minutes to get under there, all situated and stuff my arms and wrap around all the crap under there to touch stuff. thanks for everyones help and opinions.
08-21-2006, 07:56 PM
#34
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Sorry I got in late, but I would have recommended the aftermarket gauge that plugs into your computer port and gives you the temps without all of the routing and wiring.
Mike
Mike
08-21-2006, 09:24 PM
#35
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i already have all the wiring for the old location and the interceptor gauge you are talkin about is liek 246$. money i dont have to be put towards a gauge right now and if i didnt have it to go towards a gauge i'd get the wideband. thanks for the idea though MC.
08-21-2006, 09:25 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by myclone
Agreed.
Long story short I work with fluid/high temps/gauges every day (military equipment manufacturer) so Im kinda familiar with the stuff. Im not a rocket scientist by any means but none the less if you want to know the true temps of what the internal components of a system that are liquid cooled you need to get the sensor as close to those components as possible. When its not feasable to put the sensor directly on those components (like a trans with its moving parts) then a reading of the temprature of the cooling/lubricating fluid that just left those components will usually be your easiest/best bet to get a reading.
Just moving the sensor to a cooler location doesnt give you an accurate reading of the temps of the components or fluid where its important (inside the trans) it just gives you a reading of fluid thats not as hot.
Hypothetical situation... If you had to stick your hand in a stream of water coming out of a hose but you didnt know the temp but you knew it was hot where would you want to put a temprature probe to find out just how hot the water was? Would you put the temp probe 20' away from where the water was coming out of the end of the hose after it had a chance to cool some from being exposed to the outside air or would you want it right at the outlet where you were sticking your hand in it? You could get an idea of how hot the water was 20' away but would it be a true reflection of where the water is hottest where it could possibly do damage to your skin? Now replace the hand/water situation with a VERY expensive transmission....which temprature would you want to keep an eye on...the temprature of the fluid in the pan or temp of the fluid coming right out of the expensive parts of the trans? Trans pan=$30...trans rebuild=~$2000.
Vince,
Youre correct...the "where to put a trans temp sensor" has been argued for eons and the correct answer is relative to what theory you buy into. You know...some ppl say tow-may-toe and some say tow-mah-toe.
I guess what Im saying is that by no means am I argueing with you or say Im right your wrong (or vice versa) but does appear we buy into different theories on it. Im sure youd agree that no matter where you put the temp sensor its MUCH better to monitor the fluid temps in the first place rather than not at all.
Approaching or getting to 300 deg with non synthetic trans fluid is getting to critical mass. Regular trans fluid starts to break down at a more rapid rate at about 240.
Towing doesnt really cause the clutches to slip in a healthy trans. Towing does, however, get the fluid REALLY hot which reduces their ability the keep the clutches from slipping due to the thinner viscosity and the friction modifiers in the fluid coming apart. When this happens the clutches do slip which heats the fluid more and the clutches slip more. See the cyle in that last sentence? Hot fluid=slipping clutches=heating the fluid more=clutches slipping more=hotter fluid still until finally you have a catastrophic failure of the trans.
In theory at a steady speed you could tow a semi truck across the desert with a 1/2 ton truck and as long as you kep the fluid cool. Granted other parts would fail Im sure but the clutches in the trans would be fine.
I found a trans fluid temp graph a long time ago on the net that gave you the temps that the fluid started breaking down and the damage was being done. I'll see if I can dig that up for you.
Long story short I work with fluid/high temps/gauges every day (military equipment manufacturer) so Im kinda familiar with the stuff. Im not a rocket scientist by any means but none the less if you want to know the true temps of what the internal components of a system that are liquid cooled you need to get the sensor as close to those components as possible. When its not feasable to put the sensor directly on those components (like a trans with its moving parts) then a reading of the temprature of the cooling/lubricating fluid that just left those components will usually be your easiest/best bet to get a reading.
Just moving the sensor to a cooler location doesnt give you an accurate reading of the temps of the components or fluid where its important (inside the trans) it just gives you a reading of fluid thats not as hot.
Hypothetical situation... If you had to stick your hand in a stream of water coming out of a hose but you didnt know the temp but you knew it was hot where would you want to put a temprature probe to find out just how hot the water was? Would you put the temp probe 20' away from where the water was coming out of the end of the hose after it had a chance to cool some from being exposed to the outside air or would you want it right at the outlet where you were sticking your hand in it? You could get an idea of how hot the water was 20' away but would it be a true reflection of where the water is hottest where it could possibly do damage to your skin? Now replace the hand/water situation with a VERY expensive transmission....which temprature would you want to keep an eye on...the temprature of the fluid in the pan or temp of the fluid coming right out of the expensive parts of the trans? Trans pan=$30...trans rebuild=~$2000.
Vince,
Youre correct...the "where to put a trans temp sensor" has been argued for eons and the correct answer is relative to what theory you buy into. You know...some ppl say tow-may-toe and some say tow-mah-toe.
I guess what Im saying is that by no means am I argueing with you or say Im right your wrong (or vice versa) but does appear we buy into different theories on it. Im sure youd agree that no matter where you put the temp sensor its MUCH better to monitor the fluid temps in the first place rather than not at all.
Approaching or getting to 300 deg with non synthetic trans fluid is getting to critical mass. Regular trans fluid starts to break down at a more rapid rate at about 240.
Towing doesnt really cause the clutches to slip in a healthy trans. Towing does, however, get the fluid REALLY hot which reduces their ability the keep the clutches from slipping due to the thinner viscosity and the friction modifiers in the fluid coming apart. When this happens the clutches do slip which heats the fluid more and the clutches slip more. See the cyle in that last sentence? Hot fluid=slipping clutches=heating the fluid more=clutches slipping more=hotter fluid still until finally you have a catastrophic failure of the trans.
In theory at a steady speed you could tow a semi truck across the desert with a 1/2 ton truck and as long as you kep the fluid cool. Granted other parts would fail Im sure but the clutches in the trans would be fine.
I found a trans fluid temp graph a long time ago on the net that gave you the temps that the fluid started breaking down and the damage was being done. I'll see if I can dig that up for you.
i have seen stock trucks run in the range of 220 to 230 on yrans temp
sorry but i don't agree with u'r theroy the heat comes from the converter and the only trans that i seen fail r the ones that had something else wrong.
08-21-2006, 09:33 PM
#37
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if heat doesnt come from the converter then why does converter lock-up yield a quick drop in temperature? thats why city driving yields much higher temps cuz the converter spins and goes and stops and spins and goes but no lock up. on top of the fact that less air is moving over the cooler the slower you go. many transmissions fail because of torque and HP but TQ/HP also cause heat. "heat is the leading cause of transmission failure" -referring to stock applications mostly but also applies to performance, else why would a big cooler be inportant for high stall converters. many of the transmission that have something else wrong with them, have that problem due to heat whcih causes lack of viscosity of the transfluid.
08-22-2006, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by litreddevil
i have seen stock trucks run in the range of 220 to 230 on yrans temp
Also, keep in mind that trans fluid is neat stuff when it comes to heat. Once its over cooked it stays over cooked and its affectiveness starts to drop. Basically, trans fluid will do its job just fine until X temprature but once X temprature is exceeded the fluid starts losing its affectiveness. The longer the fluid stays hot and/or the hotter it is above X degrees the shorter the fluids life becomes. Trans fluid doesnt come back to life (so to speak) once its been over heated either. Its like a piece of toast....once a piece of bread is toasted it doesnt turn back into a piece of regular bread once it cools off. Same deal with trans fluid but its not nearly as tastey as toast
the only trans that i seen fail r the ones that had something else wrong.
Short version:
93 k1500 ECLB 5.7/4L6E with ~160k miles came in with no 3rd gear and the trans fluid was burnt black. Truck is bone stock but was being used by a contractor to haul his tools to/from the job site. Not a huge amount of weight but enough to make the truck sit level but that weight was there every time the truck was driven. The customer stated that over the last few months before the trans failure his gas milage had been less than what he was used to...not that he pays close attention to every MPG just that he was noticing more than the usual fill ups. He didnt think much of it since he realized he carries a little weight in the back and that the truck was getting up there in milage.
I pulled the unit out and went through the trans and found the typical burnt 3/4 clutches...burnt bad..all the way down to the steel backing on the frictions. After a rebuild and new torque converter I took it out for a road test and noticed the torque converter clutch (TCC) wasnt locking which would explain the less than typical gas milage. I had installed a new TC as well as TCC lock up solenoid so I didnt feel that was the problem so I reached under the brake pedal with top of my foot and pulled up on the brake pedal. Ta dahhh... the TCC immediately locked as it should have. As soon as I released the upward pressure on the brake pedal the TCC unlocked.
The brake pedal switch was bad which made the PCM think the brakes were being applied and the guy was driving around with no TCC lock up which makes a huge amount of heat at lower speed driving ~50mph when the trans is in OD but the RPM is really close to the stall of the TC. So, yeah...something esle took out the guys trans, so to speak, but that something else just caused excessive heat which is what wiped the clutches out.
sorry but i don't agree with u'r theroy the heat comes from the converter
BTW, where does the heat come from when I stall my Syclone up against the converter while doing a 15lb boosted launch and I can watch the trans temps go from ~120 to low 190s in about 6 seconds without even moving? Nothing in the gear train is turning since Im holding the truck still with the brakes so no heat is being generated in the gear train. The clutches arent slipping since Im monitoring/data logging the input and output shaft speed via lap top. The heat isnt coming from the engine coolant temps since my trans cooler is mounted under the bed and the trans fluid no longer gets circulated through the cooler in the radiator. So wheres that extra ~70* increase in trans fluid temps in just a few seconds coming from?
08-22-2006, 06:16 PM
#39
The heat you are seeing is from the stall of the tc. It's part of lube system if you were to look at a transmission oil schematic. If you were to read my earlier posts and undersrand the flow of cooler oil you probably would agree with me on the location of where to put the sender.
08-22-2006, 06:54 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by Vince @ FLT
The heat you are seeing is from the stall of the tc.