Why are 4L60E's so weak?!?
07-16-2011, 04:16 PM
#1
Why are 4L60E's so weak?!?
I don't get it. I don't want to believe it. LOL.
I've had plenty of high horsepower smallblock Chevy's. All of which have been in front of turbo 350's or 700R4's. Did something change when the 4L60E came out? I thought to difference was they were electronically controlled.
Right now I'm at a bit of a crossroad. I have a procharger P1 kit ready to be installed. From what I've read, my 4L60E won't last. So I have to swap in an 80E. Problem is, I'm not wild about the crappier gear ratios the 80E has and the increase in drivetrain loss driving the 80E.
The modifications and the swap to an 80E doesn't scare me. The crappier gas mileage does.
This is my daily driver and I'll swap in an 80E if that's what it takes, but I'd rather not.
Are built 60E's worthwhile? It will cost me a lot more to go with a built 60E vs a stock 80E.
Thoughts?
I've had plenty of high horsepower smallblock Chevy's. All of which have been in front of turbo 350's or 700R4's. Did something change when the 4L60E came out? I thought to difference was they were electronically controlled.
Right now I'm at a bit of a crossroad. I have a procharger P1 kit ready to be installed. From what I've read, my 4L60E won't last. So I have to swap in an 80E. Problem is, I'm not wild about the crappier gear ratios the 80E has and the increase in drivetrain loss driving the 80E.
The modifications and the swap to an 80E doesn't scare me. The crappier gas mileage does.
This is my daily driver and I'll swap in an 80E if that's what it takes, but I'd rather not.
Are built 60E's worthwhile? It will cost me a lot more to go with a built 60E vs a stock 80E.
Thoughts?
07-16-2011, 04:30 PM
#2
60e vs 80e is a never ending debate on whether to swap or not.
A 60e can be build to hold big hp and last, the problem is not to many people know how to build them. Its to easy to make a 60e shift hard and thats where it gets a bad name. Once you get this trans to shift hard , parts start breaking. And at the same time if they do not shift fast enough you will have 3-4 clutch issues.
With a 60e it depends on you application and power/weight of the vehicle.
IMO anything over 400-450 rwhp and 5000lbs you will be better off going 80e hands down.
The first few things to break in a 60e are usually the sunshell, and then the 3-4 clutches goes out in high rpm applications. If you are going to have a 60e built make sure to not let it shift hard on the 1-2. The band thats gives you second gear is bigger then any in the th350,th400, or 80e for that matter. If the band is new and the corvette servo is in then 2nd gear should hold plenty of power without shifting hard and parts will last during that shift. I have read several posts on trucks with 4l60e's where they bump up line pressure to get a tire spinning 1-2 shift, the results on many of these have been probem output shafts.
A 60e can be build to hold big hp and last, the problem is not to many people know how to build them. Its to easy to make a 60e shift hard and thats where it gets a bad name. Once you get this trans to shift hard , parts start breaking. And at the same time if they do not shift fast enough you will have 3-4 clutch issues.
With a 60e it depends on you application and power/weight of the vehicle.
IMO anything over 400-450 rwhp and 5000lbs you will be better off going 80e hands down.
The first few things to break in a 60e are usually the sunshell, and then the 3-4 clutches goes out in high rpm applications. If you are going to have a 60e built make sure to not let it shift hard on the 1-2. The band thats gives you second gear is bigger then any in the th350,th400, or 80e for that matter. If the band is new and the corvette servo is in then 2nd gear should hold plenty of power without shifting hard and parts will last during that shift. I have read several posts on trucks with 4l60e's where they bump up line pressure to get a tire spinning 1-2 shift, the results on many of these have been probem output shafts.
07-16-2011, 08:48 PM
#4
I've had plenty of high horsepower smallblock Chevy's. All of which have been in front of turbo 350's or 700R4's. Did something change when the 4L60E came out? I thought to difference was they were electronically controlled.
Right now I'm at a bit of a crossroad. I have a procharger P1 kit ready to be installed. From what I've read, my 4L60E won't last. So I have to swap in an 80E. Problem is, I'm not wild about the crappier gear ratios the 80E has and the increase in drivetrain loss driving the 80E.
The modifications and the swap to an 80E doesn't scare me. The crappier gas mileage does.
This is my daily driver and I'll swap in an 80E if that's what it takes, but I'd rather not.
Are built 60E's worthwhile? It will cost me a lot more to go with a built 60E vs a stock 80E.
Right now I'm at a bit of a crossroad. I have a procharger P1 kit ready to be installed. From what I've read, my 4L60E won't last. So I have to swap in an 80E. Problem is, I'm not wild about the crappier gear ratios the 80E has and the increase in drivetrain loss driving the 80E.
The modifications and the swap to an 80E doesn't scare me. The crappier gas mileage does.
This is my daily driver and I'll swap in an 80E if that's what it takes, but I'd rather not.
Are built 60E's worthwhile? It will cost me a lot more to go with a built 60E vs a stock 80E.
IMO, I went w/. a built 60E for reasons u said: I like the better gearing of 60E, lighter weight, less drivetrain loss & better MPG. 60E originally came in there, so I didn't hafta change anything, another perk. Yes, unfortunately, a built 60E costs more than a stock 80E.
$ for $, a built 60E costs as much as a built 80E. To adapt that 80E in its' place, adds to bottom line & tune for it too. And like you, the mods & swap to do an 80E, were acceptable to me too, not the MPG.
lf built right, & by those that know how, maybe you (or I, or others) are takin a chance, but I have to deal w/. it. Whenever I get my s/c installed & drive it like I do now, I can better answer, but as it stands now, I love my built 60E. Others can disagree & that's fine. If this 60E lasts, OK. If it ever fails, I may have it redone, but a 80E will be a consideration then. Hopefully, I can rock this beauty a long time.
60e vs 80e is a never ending debate on whether to swap or not.
A 60e can be build to hold big hp and last, the problem is not to many people know how to build them. Its to easy to make a 60e shift hard and thats where it gets a bad name. Once you get this trans to shift hard , parts start breaking. And at the same time if they do not shift fast enough you will have 3-4 clutch issues.
With a 60e it depends on you application and power/weight of the vehicle.
IMO anything over 400-450 rwhp and 5000lbs you will be better off going 80e hands down.
The first few things to break in a 60e are usually the sunshell, and then the 3-4 clutches goes out in high rpm applications. If you are going to have a 60e built make sure to not let it shift hard on the 1-2. The band thats gives you second gear is bigger then any in the th350,th400, or 80e for that matter. If the band is new and the corvette servo is in then 2nd gear should hold plenty of power without shifting hard and parts will last during that shift. I have read several posts on trucks with 4l60e's where they bump up line pressure to get a tire spinning 1-2 shift, the results on many of these have been probem output shafts.
A 60e can be build to hold big hp and last, the problem is not to many people know how to build them. Its to easy to make a 60e shift hard and thats where it gets a bad name. Once you get this trans to shift hard , parts start breaking. And at the same time if they do not shift fast enough you will have 3-4 clutch issues.
With a 60e it depends on you application and power/weight of the vehicle.
IMO anything over 400-450 rwhp and 5000lbs you will be better off going 80e hands down.
The first few things to break in a 60e are usually the sunshell, and then the 3-4 clutches goes out in high rpm applications. If you are going to have a 60e built make sure to not let it shift hard on the 1-2. The band thats gives you second gear is bigger then any in the th350,th400, or 80e for that matter. If the band is new and the corvette servo is in then 2nd gear should hold plenty of power without shifting hard and parts will last during that shift. I have read several posts on trucks with 4l60e's where they bump up line pressure to get a tire spinning 1-2 shift, the results on many of these have been probem output shafts.
Somebody has been around the block w/. this.
Power kills em. Weight I believe is a huge factor. Not sure which has the greater impact, but I may lean towards weight.
And no tire chirping shifts nor crazy line pressure. I keep seeing this.
Find a great builder.
Myself, I've broken a sunshell, fractured a 5 pin planet in 5 places, had an input or was it an output shaft break (it's been awhile on that, sorry I'm fuzzy but I know it was 1 of them shafts, ha). Both built units behind a truck ~5000#, ~300HP, & tire chirping shifts but I may've had a failing rearend lend a hand toward their demise too. And a hi mileage, stock 700r4. Long story. I drive em hard.
Who knows what I had wrong on the 1 in my '04 Silvy.
Brad said,
"w/o converter
4l60e 135lbs
4l80e 185lbs
I also believe the converter for the 80e is about 5-10lbs heavier stock for stock."
An 80 is just a heavier duty unit all around as it's weight above states. You're payin for rotating that mass in terms of ETs, but hopefully gain in durability & longevity. A tradeoff obviously, that in the end, u can make the decision better than any of us for your intended use & your driving habits. Really, don't sugarcoat it, how u really drive it.
Last edited by fastnblu; 07-16-2011 at 08:56 PM.
07-16-2011, 08:56 PM
#5
Wow , The multiquote master is back!! Hi TOMMY!!
Any way The honest answer is a 60E is not a junk transmission.
But it should have never been put in a heavy truck from the factory, thats why GM has so much TQ management in their tunes so it has a chance of living.
Doesnt matter who builds them, they wont last forever in a high power heavy vehicle,
Why ?, be cause of size, the internals of the 60e are small compared to an 80e which can handle the power.
Its up to you, ive went thru 4 60e's and am totally stoked with my 80e.
If i were you i would not try my luck with one since you dont have a built one yet, Just do the 80e and be done with trans worries, Unless you have Vince B or Rossler build you a 60e.
Any way The honest answer is a 60E is not a junk transmission.
But it should have never been put in a heavy truck from the factory, thats why GM has so much TQ management in their tunes so it has a chance of living.
Doesnt matter who builds them, they wont last forever in a high power heavy vehicle,
Why ?, be cause of size, the internals of the 60e are small compared to an 80e which can handle the power.
Its up to you, ive went thru 4 60e's and am totally stoked with my 80e.
If i were you i would not try my luck with one since you dont have a built one yet, Just do the 80e and be done with trans worries, Unless you have Vince B or Rossler build you a 60e.
07-16-2011, 08:58 PM
#6
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Right now I'm at a bit of a crossroad. I have a procharger P1 kit ready to be installed. From what I've read, my 4L60E won't last. So I have to swap in an 80E. Problem is, I'm not wild about the crappier gear ratios the 80E has and the increase in drivetrain loss driving the 80E.
Turbo 350: 2.52, 1.52, 1.00
4L80E: 2.48, 1.48, 1.00
07-16-2011, 08:59 PM
#7
... Any way The honest answer is a 60E is not a junk transmission.
But it should have never been put in a heavy truck from the factory, thats why GM has so much TQ management in their tunes so it has a chance of living.
Doesnt matter who builds them, they wont last forever in a high power heavy vehicle,
Why ?, be cause of size, the internals of the 60e are small compared to an 80e which can handle the power.
Its up to you, ive went thru 4 60e's and am totally stoked with my 80e.
If i were you i would not try my luck with one since you dont have a built one yet, Just do the 80e and be done with trans worries, Unless you have Vince B or Rossler build you a 60e.
But it should have never been put in a heavy truck from the factory, thats why GM has so much TQ management in their tunes so it has a chance of living.
Doesnt matter who builds them, they wont last forever in a high power heavy vehicle,
Why ?, be cause of size, the internals of the 60e are small compared to an 80e which can handle the power.
Its up to you, ive went thru 4 60e's and am totally stoked with my 80e.
If i were you i would not try my luck with one since you dont have a built one yet, Just do the 80e and be done with trans worries, Unless you have Vince B or Rossler build you a 60e.
Tim, as for your 12.8. NICE!!! You'll see me more now, ... I think. It's gettin too hot to work outside. So, sittin on computer in A/C is a better option.
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07-16-2011, 09:54 PM
#8
I am very happy I did the 80e swap. Don't be worried about the gear ratio, it isn't bad at all. Take a truck for a ride with an 80e in it. It is the same gear ratio as the old TH400's (with an OD). Plus the 80e was put in heavy trucks. Not only is it designed to handle more power and a heavy vehicle, the gear ratio is set up for towing/pulling/plowing. A good 60e is a desirable transmission (because lots of them go bad) if you wait till yours goes bad, a core isn't worth much at all. I would suggest to sell your good 60e, and put that money towards a swap.
07-16-2011, 10:46 PM
#9
Wow, thanks for the replies guys! Another thing I'm considering is a 6.0 swap. I found a guy locally that will sell his drive train out of his 2500 Silverado to me for 2000.00 cash.
I'm thinking I could swap that into my truck and throw the procharger on the 6.0L. I'm not sure yet.
I'll have to look up the gear ratios differences between the 60E and the 80E.
Thanks fellas!
I'm thinking I could swap that into my truck and throw the procharger on the 6.0L. I'm not sure yet.
I'll have to look up the gear ratios differences between the 60E and the 80E.
Thanks fellas!
07-16-2011, 11:01 PM
#10
4L60E
3.06
1.62
1.00
0.70
2.29
4L80E
2.48
1.48
1.00
0.75
2.08
TH350
2.52
1.52
1.00
1.93
That seems like a pretty substantial gearing difference. Honestly, my biggest concern is the gas mileage. I know that sounds silly when building a high horsepower engine, but it is my daily driver and 70% of my driving is freeway driving.
Gadget, you're right. The gear ratios are the same as the turbo 400's, except reverse.
3.06
1.62
1.00
0.70
2.29
4L80E
2.48
1.48
1.00
0.75
2.08
TH350
2.52
1.52
1.00
1.93
That seems like a pretty substantial gearing difference. Honestly, my biggest concern is the gas mileage. I know that sounds silly when building a high horsepower engine, but it is my daily driver and 70% of my driving is freeway driving.
Gadget, you're right. The gear ratios are the same as the turbo 400's, except reverse.