110 and under LSA/ICL/ECL
11-15-2006, 01:02 PM
#21
Originally Posted by Sport Side
That's because DCR on Tech is biggest and greatest thing ever. Even if you have to advance your cam 8* to knock it up some. With as important as it 'sounds', I'm suprised cam-only guys with DCRs in the 7.X can even make it down the 1/4 mile.
11-15-2006, 01:13 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by 02sierraz71_5.3
Im suprised to hear you make this statment you know how important DCR is, Ive seen the cams you spec and all of em have high DCR and low angles; I dont agree on the intake bias split but thats another thread.
11-15-2006, 01:15 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by 02sierraz71_5.3
What adjustments have been made in the KR settings?
The only thing I could think of is your quench area is perfect mine is the opposite I have shitty quench and have problems with KR (milled .050 and stock gaskets)
I thought this was some cool info
SStrokerace:"The tighter quench and higher compression WORK because the extra fuel that is far away from the plug preignites because it's not forced out of the quench area with that large amount of quench, by tightening it up you cause the mixture to be more turbulent, get pushed out of the far reaches of the chamber and burn better. Smokey Yunick found this out decades ago and it's always worked like a charm.
Bret"
Another thing are you getting gas from the same location every time?
I assume you know you are leaving alot of power on the table with stock manifolds especially with that type of cam.
The only thing I could think of is your quench area is perfect mine is the opposite I have shitty quench and have problems with KR (milled .050 and stock gaskets)
I thought this was some cool info
SStrokerace:"The tighter quench and higher compression WORK because the extra fuel that is far away from the plug preignites because it's not forced out of the quench area with that large amount of quench, by tightening it up you cause the mixture to be more turbulent, get pushed out of the far reaches of the chamber and burn better. Smokey Yunick found this out decades ago and it's always worked like a charm.
Bret"
Another thing are you getting gas from the same location every time?
I assume you know you are leaving alot of power on the table with stock manifolds especially with that type of cam.
But just to be clear, I get absolutely no audible KR. Just a slight 1* once in a while. I used to be able to hear it before but that was with an extremely high timing table.
Most of the time I get it from the same place but not everytime. I think in the last three times I filled up I went to two different places.
Oh believe me I know I'm leaving a ton of power on the table with stock manifolds. I had a set of TOGs ready to go on but decieded to sell the truck so I have been selling all the parts I had for it.
The truck is basically back to stock besides the engine and will be traded in as soon as my new truck comes in.
11-15-2006, 01:51 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Sport Side
Has less to do with high DCR and more about bringing the power back down to where it's useful with the intake restricted motors. Then, that gets back into the intake bias. After I blab about that for a little more, you start realizing that the motor wants the valves opening/closing at certain points due to the way it flows. In my opinion, compression is better left to your heads/piston and not the cam via ICL (advancing).
11-15-2006, 02:22 PM
#25
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Stick with me for a moment on the DCR vs. cam design. What is everyone getting at with DCR? 8:5 is the most compression you can get out of 93 octane. But, that bases has somewhat formed into, you need 8:5 DCR in any given circumstance. The closer you are, the more power you will make. Well... hold on. So, we're saying given a setup that is making 8.0 DCR with a 224/228-112+2 cam, that if I advance it another 2* it will make more power because DCR increases? We're saying that BlueCajun with his 220/220-112+4 will go quicker with another 4* of advance because DCR has increased, correct?
My point is that people are getting 'away' from valve events and focusing so much on DCR that they forget that extra 2* of advance is not only bumping up DCR... It is advancing the opening/closing of the intake valve and exhaust valve. With an intake restriction (aka truck intake), our motors require certain timing events to make the most average power, not X amount of DCR.
An example. Given a 5.3L motor, I would pick a good street/strip cam, match it with the correct gears/converter/tire, then mill the heads and use a thinner gasket to increase compression. Yeah, I would pay attention to how high you push up DCR, but as you have probably seen, some are even getting away with 8:7 and even 8:9 DCR.
My point is that people are getting 'away' from valve events and focusing so much on DCR that they forget that extra 2* of advance is not only bumping up DCR... It is advancing the opening/closing of the intake valve and exhaust valve. With an intake restriction (aka truck intake), our motors require certain timing events to make the most average power, not X amount of DCR.
An example. Given a 5.3L motor, I would pick a good street/strip cam, match it with the correct gears/converter/tire, then mill the heads and use a thinner gasket to increase compression. Yeah, I would pay attention to how high you push up DCR, but as you have probably seen, some are even getting away with 8:7 and even 8:9 DCR.
11-15-2006, 03:30 PM
#26
Originally Posted by Sport Side
Stick with me for a moment on the DCR vs. cam design. What is everyone getting at with DCR? 8:5 is the most compression you can get out of 93 octane. But, that bases has somewhat formed into, you need 8:5 DCR in any given circumstance. The closer you are, the more power you will make. Well... hold on. So, we're saying given a setup that is making 8.0 DCR with a 224/228-112+2 cam, that if I advance it another 2* it will make more power because DCR increases? We're saying that BlueCajun with his 220/220-112+4 will go quicker with another 4* of advance because DCR has increased, correct?
My point is that people are getting 'away' from valve events and focusing so much on DCR that they forget that extra 2* of advance is not only bumping up DCR... It is advancing the opening/closing of the intake valve and exhaust valve. With an intake restriction (aka truck intake), our motors require certain timing events to make the most average power, not X amount of DCR.
An example. Given a 5.3L motor, I would pick a good street/strip cam, match it with the correct gears/converter/tire, then mill the heads and use a thinner gasket to increase compression. Yeah, I would pay attention to how high you push up DCR, but as you have probably seen, some are even getting away with 8:7 and even 8:9 DCR.
My point is that people are getting 'away' from valve events and focusing so much on DCR that they forget that extra 2* of advance is not only bumping up DCR... It is advancing the opening/closing of the intake valve and exhaust valve. With an intake restriction (aka truck intake), our motors require certain timing events to make the most average power, not X amount of DCR.
An example. Given a 5.3L motor, I would pick a good street/strip cam, match it with the correct gears/converter/tire, then mill the heads and use a thinner gasket to increase compression. Yeah, I would pay attention to how high you push up DCR, but as you have probably seen, some are even getting away with 8:7 and even 8:9 DCR.
Oh man where to begin.......
Not trying to be a smartass but any internal comb engine runs off compression the more of it and the more power you make, this is why race engines run compression ratios in the 14:1 SCR range. DCR is really the only compression stat that matters SCR is secondary.
I agree with your statement about valve events completely.
Now onto cajuns specific setup Yes he will make more power but its power he will never see going down the track because its under 3k rpms, and at the same time it could effect the power band he is using negatively by throwing the valve events off. This is why a good cam isnt going to have advance ground in.
I disagree with you on crutching the intake because of head flow numbers there is more restriction on the exhaust as the head numbers indicate, plus when you increase the exhaust bias you pull the hp curve up and out. Ialso believe by biasing the intake duration your increasing pumping losses. With the intake biased I believe you can possibly make more down low but you are sacrificing numbers at the big end which is where everyone operates anyway and ET's are made.
Obviously all this is on an NA motor.
Another bigger reason why I dont agree with the intake bias is that I have seen one graph that supposedly made good power and thats the one you posted. How many other 100's of setups have I read about that made great power with the traditional split. The gen 3 motor has been around for almost 10 years now the aftermarket would have recognized the intake bias split if it worked as well as the reverse.
11-15-2006, 03:49 PM
#28
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I shouldn't just say okay I guess. I do disagree with a few things, but that doesn't make you wrong. I think it's funny though how you pin point that no one uses reverse splits. The gen 3 motor has been around for almost 10 years now the aftermarket would have recognized the intake bias split if it worked as well as the reverse
Although, the TR Old Man cam is a reverse split, Speed Engineering sells I believe a few reverse splits. You have the TR230/224, the TR227/224. The TRak is a reverse split @ .200''. The FM13 is a reverse split @ .200''. HiTech motorsports sells reverse splits. Chris Straub @ Stef's is a fan of them in restricted intake apps. I learned a bunch of stuff from Shaun Perry after he did a bunch of reverse junk.
They are out there. You'll notice the majority of people are more centered around big peak HP numbers, which may take a bit away from the reverse camp.
Although, the TR Old Man cam is a reverse split, Speed Engineering sells I believe a few reverse splits. You have the TR230/224, the TR227/224. The TRak is a reverse split @ .200''. The FM13 is a reverse split @ .200''. HiTech motorsports sells reverse splits. Chris Straub @ Stef's is a fan of them in restricted intake apps. I learned a bunch of stuff from Shaun Perry after he did a bunch of reverse junk.
They are out there. You'll notice the majority of people are more centered around big peak HP numbers, which may take a bit away from the reverse camp.
11-15-2006, 06:18 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Sport Side
I shouldn't just say okay I guess. I do disagree with a few things, but that doesn't make you wrong. I think it's funny though how you pin point that no one uses reverse splits. The gen 3 motor has been around for almost 10 years now the aftermarket would have recognized the intake bias split if it worked as well as the reverse
Although, the TR Old Man cam is a reverse split, Speed Engineering sells I believe a few reverse splits. You have the TR230/224, the TR227/224. The TRak is a reverse split @ .200''. The FM13 is a reverse split @ .200''. HiTech motorsports sells reverse splits. Chris Straub @ Stef's is a fan of them in restricted intake apps. I learned a bunch of stuff from Shaun Perry after he did a bunch of reverse junk.
They are out there. You'll notice the majority of people are more centered around big peak HP numbers, which may take a bit away from the reverse camp.
Although, the TR Old Man cam is a reverse split, Speed Engineering sells I believe a few reverse splits. You have the TR230/224, the TR227/224. The TRak is a reverse split @ .200''. The FM13 is a reverse split @ .200''. HiTech motorsports sells reverse splits. Chris Straub @ Stef's is a fan of them in restricted intake apps. I learned a bunch of stuff from Shaun Perry after he did a bunch of reverse junk.
They are out there. You'll notice the majority of people are more centered around big peak HP numbers, which may take a bit away from the reverse camp.
The Trak is a 231/234 @.050 and it might be reversed @.2(didnt know the lobes were that different) but where is it the rest of the time?
Im not saying they wont make power its just that they seem to leave alot of untapped potential up top and for most guys that run a 3k stall and have a shift extension of 4300+ it leaves me wondering.
Our intakes are restricted but its only after 5800 with the truck and 6300 with the ls6. I really think they flow very well for thier rpm range, fo example take parishs recent swap to the vic jr he lost everywhere except at the very top where ours are limited.
When Chris Straub is talking about restricted intakes is he talking about lsx intakes? I really dont see the intake restriction when youve got guys putting down 470+Rwhp(patG yes he has a ported fast) from an ls1, sure its restricted but restricted compared to what a 1100cc tunnel ram?
Not trying to be an *******, Im just wondering if Im missing something.
11-15-2006, 10:04 PM
#30
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screw peak HP
unless you are goin all out custom intake and driveline to match the powerband
I feel like theres a point where most are fighting the intake
unfortunately its at a level the intake is good at being restrictive
The war may be won but the price paid down low outweighs the little bit you gain up top
Isnt a better approach to stay within the limits of the intake you're stuck with?
unless you are goin all out custom intake and driveline to match the powerband
I feel like theres a point where most are fighting the intake
unfortunately its at a level the intake is good at being restrictive
The war may be won but the price paid down low outweighs the little bit you gain up top
Isnt a better approach to stay within the limits of the intake you're stuck with?