Tick Performance exaggerated performance claims
10-26-2021, 06:25 PM
#31
1. My expectations were unrealistic.
Yes, I'm well aware it's a 4.8 and that's the smallest LS, but this cam is specifically designed for the 4.8 and 5.3. See: https://www.tickperformance.com/tick...4-lq9-engines/ So, no, I was not expecting 100hp gains. I was expecting what Tick said to expect: 45-55RWTQ and 30-40RWHP. In fact, given that it's a 4.8, I was only expecting the low end of the range Tick was claiming, or at least within a few digits of it. But my numbers (13Tq and 23Hp gained) don't even come close to the low end of Tick's advertised range--especially torque. And keep in mind this cam is specifically marketed as a Towing and torque cam.
2. I have the wrong parts to make the numbers that Tick said I should expect.
Sure, other parts would help make more power. But the point is that, when I was considering whether to buy the cam, I told the Tick tech guy what parts my truck had and he confirmed that I could expect to see the gains posted on their website. Only after I had such lackluster results, and I called Tick about it, did they bring up the need for long tube headers. If that's what's needed to make the numbers they are claiming, then they should be clear about that on their website. The phrase "in a well-optimized setup" can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. I told Tick what my setup was before I bought this cam--they confirmed that I should expect the gains they had posted.
3. The tune is to blame.
Thanks for the suggestion about asking for the tune. I'll do that and post it here when I get it. Believe me, I would love it if someone can look at the tune and figure out how to get more gains, especially torque.
4. You need more info about my truck's modifications. It's a 2004 4.8, 118k miles, I run only 92 octane. Modifications: K&N cold air intake and K&N cone filter, custom dual exhaust with dual hi-flow cats, x-pipe, Flowmasters, a Flex-A-Lite electric fan conversion, and freshly-rebuilt 706 heads and iridium spark plugs installed at the same time as cam swap. Other than that, all stock. Also, someone mentioned possible cooler air temp differences between April (when I did the "before" run) and July (when I did the "after" run). I don't think that's a factor, because when the tuner did the July "after" test he got the best pull that he could at the end of the day, then he left the truck strapped to the dyno overnight, and did another pull first thing the next morning when the air was probably 20 degrees cooler. No change in the numbers. Lastly, someone gave me a hard time for waiting three months to post this, yet someone else gave me a hard time for going off of just dyno numbers and not real world conditions. The reason I waited three months is I wanted to drive the truck and take the time to get a good feel for what it was like in real world conditions. It feels exactly as it did before the cam swap, with just a little more hit around 5k, just as the dyno sheet shows.
5. The surging indicates other problems. It's possible, but I'm doubtful. The surging never existed before this cam swap (so that rules out things like a pre-existing vacuum leak or bad O2 sensors). I've taken it back to the tuner to correct it as best he could. It's a reaction to the cam, at idle the ECU is swinging the timing really far from retarded to advanced. The tuner narrowed the timing limits at idle so that it can't vary the timing so far up and down, and that has reduced the issue but it still there a bit.
6. A couple people commented that I should have been more skeptical about Tick's claims, they're salesmen after all.
That point I won't argue with. Hopefully others can learn from my experience.
Thanks for the input everyone.
10-26-2021, 06:39 PM
#32
Tick's expectation is that the customer accept some degree of responsibility for the outcome of the project. That DOES NOT mean, jam this cam in there, and you get xx HP and yy torques.
What their claim means is, if you take a BONE STOCK motor in virtually perfect but used condition, and do the "usual" things to it such as long-tube headers, a GOOD free-flowing exhaust, and a GOOD tune, and then AFTER THAT swap out the STOCK cam for this other, you could get AS MANY AS xx HP and yy torques.
So, let's just go visit the web site. Your cam, if it's that first one you posted, doesn't say anything about "Tow Max". It DOES however say this:
Basic Operating RPM Range: 2000-6400
Expected Horsepower Gains: 35-45RWHP over the stock camshaft in a well-optimized setup
Expected Torque Gains: 35-45RWTQ over the stock camshaft in a well-optimized setup
Aftermarket Headers Required: Longtubes suggested for maximum power gains
Stall Converter Required: Yes, 3000+RPM
Sorry, I just copied and pasted, just like you did all over the Interwebz. Note also, there's about A HALF DOZEN "stock cams" in the motors they mention, and they don't mention which one.
As far as the tune, DON'T make yerbasic n00bie mistake, which it sounds like you did: you instructed him/her to get you THE MOST HP AND TORQUE POSSIBLE. Let me let you in on a little secret: in the tune, as much as in any other "parts" selection, there is A WHOLE RANGE of things you can optimize for; and if you optimize it for a big dyno number, EVERYTHING ELSE will suffer. Granted, that's less true with a tune than with most other things, but the problem remains: if you tune for dyno numbers ONLY, then OTHER things (gas mileage, low-speed manners, driveability, you name it) WILL suffer. Above all, it will suffer if you beat on your tuner about I want more HP and torque" instead of LETTING THEM DO THEIR JOB. After all, you're paying that person because they know more than you do and have more equipment than you do, and you should let them do what they do best, instead of micromanaging them.
I can't comment on "custom dual exhaust". I've seen some dual exhausts that you'd have a hard time sucking rum and Coke out of a red cup through. I've also seen some NON-CUSTOM single exhausts that would RUN CIRCLES around some typical corner muffler shop duals. Just saying "custom dual exhaust" doesn't carry much water, in my experience. Frankly I'd rather have a GOOD QUALITY mandrel-bent single 3" exhaust than some crush- or crinkle-bent corner muffler store 2¼" CRAP, regardless of what brand muffler they stuck in it.
I've been in and around this business for A LONG TIME; many decades, near half a century in fact; quite possibly since before your grandpa was even a gleam in your grandma's eye yet. I've seen exactly what happened to you, happen COUNTLESS times, in all brands, types, and sizes of cars & trucks. I've built motors for people and had it happen, before I learned to tell people who I knew it was going to happen to, to have a nice day and take their money to somebody else because I didn't need somebody bashing me for giving them what they told me to give them like you're doing to Tick.
I agree, Tick's "tech line" (or Comp's, or any of a number of others... I have personal experience with Comp but I'm sure it's largely the same everywhere) tends to kind of "go along with" whatever the customer seems enamored with. That's part of the good old American business ethos about "the customer is always right". Well I'll let you in on a dirty little secret: the customer is usually full of DUNG. But, the phone people have NO WAY to know that about you, in the sense of protecting you from yourself; they pick up the phone, they hear "I want the Magnificent New-Improved XP-3971A Left-Hand Feeblevetzer I saw in your catalog, is that the right feeblevetzer for me?" and guess what... the customer is always right, right? They will IMMEDIATLEY launch into telling you how great the XP-3971A is. It's basic human psychology. Now I didn't hear your telecon of course, butt... I can only guess. You ended up with a cam that your little weenie motor is a good solid 20° TOO LITTLE to use, although it would probably work great in a Miata with a 5.x and 4.10 gears, but that's HALF AS MUCH car to move around. If you had got on this site, or pt.net, and READ instead of POSTING, you'd have seen PLENTY of other EXPERIENCED people talking about WHAT WORKS, as well as WHAT DOESN'T, and most important of all, WHY. You would not have made this mistake.
If you call up a cam line and tell them you've got a 4.8, freshly worked heads (stock valves? what springs? How many angles on the valve job? and so on), manifolds (NOTHING behind them matters much at that point, except to make it worse), stock converter, and you can't / don't know how to tune, I'm gonna bet he would have told you (a) you should get a cam about 2 notches lower than the one you ended up with, and (b) he would have told you something like as long as you have those manifolds on there you're only going to see a tiny fraction of what you COULD OTHERWISE get, if anything.
In short, I think you're inexperienced, and your expectations are unrealistic, and you read too much into the "promises" about what that cam would give you vs what THE REAL WORLD has found works well in a pitiful motor like a 4.8. Just like in the 70s when people would bring me their 267 or 305 and want cams and MSDs and Holley carbs and Bozhye only knows what all else put on em, but it was a 2nd gen Camaro so they didn't want headers because they had a crappy driveway, and I screwed up and did all that and they'd STILL get beat stoplight-to-stoplight by a VW and STILL can't pass a semi on a 2-lane road, and it was MY FAULT. Didn't take long before I quit doing that, and gave em my slimiest competitor's phone number and told em to have a nice day.
Your problem isn't "Tick", or their tech support. It's N00Bness. Now don't get me wrong; that's OK, as long as you don't get all sand-in-your-vagina about it, and start posting crap from one end to the other of the Internet about it. That just pisses the rest of us off. We were ALL n00bz at one time or another, and before Algore invented the Interwebz, we didn't even have a way to tap into the greater poll of knowledge to overcome it. We just suffered through it. At this point, you just need to learn a lesson, and quit arguing about it because it just makes you look like a fool instead of merely a n00b, and move on. Like Mama always said (probably right after she talked about chocolate) "it's better to be though of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". (or your keyboard)
All that said, I'd suggest you rethink you choice of cam. I'd suggest this one right here. https://www.texas-speed.com/p-8555-t...-camshaft.aspx or maybe this one LS TRUCK CAMSHAFT (vincihiperformance.com) and go down to the 2nd one, the "Mega Torque" that says "GREAT FOR 4.8L, 5.3L & 6.0L IN VERY HEAVY TRUCKS, VANS, MOTOR HOMES". I agree, it SUCKS that you've got something you don't like and your money is gone, but rather than bashing the vendor, lick your wounds and put on your big boy pants and handle it like a man.
I can copy & paste too.
And, I'm sorry, I looked at the first in your "list" of cams, I didn't notice the link further up there. Not to worry though: your motor is still too small for that cam, even though it's not near as much of a mismatch as that other.
What their claim means is, if you take a BONE STOCK motor in virtually perfect but used condition, and do the "usual" things to it such as long-tube headers, a GOOD free-flowing exhaust, and a GOOD tune, and then AFTER THAT swap out the STOCK cam for this other, you could get AS MANY AS xx HP and yy torques.
So, let's just go visit the web site. Your cam, if it's that first one you posted, doesn't say anything about "Tow Max". It DOES however say this:
229/235 | .610”/.610” | LSA111+2
Basic Operating RPM Range: 2000-6400
Expected Horsepower Gains: 35-45RWHP over the stock camshaft in a well-optimized setup
Expected Torque Gains: 35-45RWTQ over the stock camshaft in a well-optimized setup
Aftermarket Headers Required: Longtubes suggested for maximum power gains
Stall Converter Required: Yes, 3000+RPM
Sorry, I just copied and pasted, just like you did all over the Interwebz. Note also, there's about A HALF DOZEN "stock cams" in the motors they mention, and they don't mention which one.
As far as the tune, DON'T make yerbasic n00bie mistake, which it sounds like you did: you instructed him/her to get you THE MOST HP AND TORQUE POSSIBLE. Let me let you in on a little secret: in the tune, as much as in any other "parts" selection, there is A WHOLE RANGE of things you can optimize for; and if you optimize it for a big dyno number, EVERYTHING ELSE will suffer. Granted, that's less true with a tune than with most other things, but the problem remains: if you tune for dyno numbers ONLY, then OTHER things (gas mileage, low-speed manners, driveability, you name it) WILL suffer. Above all, it will suffer if you beat on your tuner about I want more HP and torque" instead of LETTING THEM DO THEIR JOB. After all, you're paying that person because they know more than you do and have more equipment than you do, and you should let them do what they do best, instead of micromanaging them.
I can't comment on "custom dual exhaust". I've seen some dual exhausts that you'd have a hard time sucking rum and Coke out of a red cup through. I've also seen some NON-CUSTOM single exhausts that would RUN CIRCLES around some typical corner muffler shop duals. Just saying "custom dual exhaust" doesn't carry much water, in my experience. Frankly I'd rather have a GOOD QUALITY mandrel-bent single 3" exhaust than some crush- or crinkle-bent corner muffler store 2¼" CRAP, regardless of what brand muffler they stuck in it.
I've been in and around this business for A LONG TIME; many decades, near half a century in fact; quite possibly since before your grandpa was even a gleam in your grandma's eye yet. I've seen exactly what happened to you, happen COUNTLESS times, in all brands, types, and sizes of cars & trucks. I've built motors for people and had it happen, before I learned to tell people who I knew it was going to happen to, to have a nice day and take their money to somebody else because I didn't need somebody bashing me for giving them what they told me to give them like you're doing to Tick.
I agree, Tick's "tech line" (or Comp's, or any of a number of others... I have personal experience with Comp but I'm sure it's largely the same everywhere) tends to kind of "go along with" whatever the customer seems enamored with. That's part of the good old American business ethos about "the customer is always right". Well I'll let you in on a dirty little secret: the customer is usually full of DUNG. But, the phone people have NO WAY to know that about you, in the sense of protecting you from yourself; they pick up the phone, they hear "I want the Magnificent New-Improved XP-3971A Left-Hand Feeblevetzer I saw in your catalog, is that the right feeblevetzer for me?" and guess what... the customer is always right, right? They will IMMEDIATLEY launch into telling you how great the XP-3971A is. It's basic human psychology. Now I didn't hear your telecon of course, butt... I can only guess. You ended up with a cam that your little weenie motor is a good solid 20° TOO LITTLE to use, although it would probably work great in a Miata with a 5.x and 4.10 gears, but that's HALF AS MUCH car to move around. If you had got on this site, or pt.net, and READ instead of POSTING, you'd have seen PLENTY of other EXPERIENCED people talking about WHAT WORKS, as well as WHAT DOESN'T, and most important of all, WHY. You would not have made this mistake.
If you call up a cam line and tell them you've got a 4.8, freshly worked heads (stock valves? what springs? How many angles on the valve job? and so on), manifolds (NOTHING behind them matters much at that point, except to make it worse), stock converter, and you can't / don't know how to tune, I'm gonna bet he would have told you (a) you should get a cam about 2 notches lower than the one you ended up with, and (b) he would have told you something like as long as you have those manifolds on there you're only going to see a tiny fraction of what you COULD OTHERWISE get, if anything.
In short, I think you're inexperienced, and your expectations are unrealistic, and you read too much into the "promises" about what that cam would give you vs what THE REAL WORLD has found works well in a pitiful motor like a 4.8. Just like in the 70s when people would bring me their 267 or 305 and want cams and MSDs and Holley carbs and Bozhye only knows what all else put on em, but it was a 2nd gen Camaro so they didn't want headers because they had a crappy driveway, and I screwed up and did all that and they'd STILL get beat stoplight-to-stoplight by a VW and STILL can't pass a semi on a 2-lane road, and it was MY FAULT. Didn't take long before I quit doing that, and gave em my slimiest competitor's phone number and told em to have a nice day.
Your problem isn't "Tick", or their tech support. It's N00Bness. Now don't get me wrong; that's OK, as long as you don't get all sand-in-your-vagina about it, and start posting crap from one end to the other of the Internet about it. That just pisses the rest of us off. We were ALL n00bz at one time or another, and before Algore invented the Interwebz, we didn't even have a way to tap into the greater poll of knowledge to overcome it. We just suffered through it. At this point, you just need to learn a lesson, and quit arguing about it because it just makes you look like a fool instead of merely a n00b, and move on. Like Mama always said (probably right after she talked about chocolate) "it's better to be though of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". (or your keyboard)
All that said, I'd suggest you rethink you choice of cam. I'd suggest this one right here. https://www.texas-speed.com/p-8555-t...-camshaft.aspx or maybe this one LS TRUCK CAMSHAFT (vincihiperformance.com) and go down to the 2nd one, the "Mega Torque" that says "GREAT FOR 4.8L, 5.3L & 6.0L IN VERY HEAVY TRUCKS, VANS, MOTOR HOMES". I agree, it SUCKS that you've got something you don't like and your money is gone, but rather than bashing the vendor, lick your wounds and put on your big boy pants and handle it like a man.
I can copy & paste too.
And, I'm sorry, I looked at the first in your "list" of cams, I didn't notice the link further up there. Not to worry though: your motor is still too small for that cam, even though it's not near as much of a mismatch as that other.
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swathdiver (10-27-2021)
10-26-2021, 06:40 PM
#33
Really would like to see that timing table if you can get it. I have a smaller cam, both in lift and duration- but a larger motor, and I say serious gains. Rock solid and smooth idle, but a bit "exhausty" smelling. I don't know what my peak timing is at, but I'll look. Maybe we can compare timing tables. If I had to guess, that's where the power is hiding
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10-26-2021, 07:35 PM
#34
100% Redneck
The surging indicates other problems. It's possible, but I'm doubtful. The surging never existed before this cam swap (so that rules out things like a pre-existing vacuum leak or bad O2 sensors). I've taken it back to the tuner to correct it as best he could. It's a reaction to the cam, at idle the ECU is swinging the timing really far from retarded to advanced. The tuner narrowed the timing limits at idle so that it can't vary the timing so far up and down, and that has reduced the issue but it still there a bit.
There is a tried and true way of getting a rock solid idle even with much larger camshafts. A tuner named RussK perfected the way to adjust idle airflow and even gave the tuning community his idle air flow config files. After the idle airflow is corrected the IAC (idle air control) should be corrected. These two important steps take time as the idle airflow adjustments MUST be performed starting with a stone COLD engine when doing the "neutral" airflow table THEN again a COLD engine doing "in gear" table. Most tuners will not do this because of time constraints (hours to cool down) but some tuners have enough experience to know how to blindly tweak these tables for an acceptable idle.
Edit to Add: Drive by wire throttle bodies do not need (or have IAC motors) IAC adjustments. Only cable TB's need IAC adjustments
Last edited by RedXray; 10-26-2021 at 07:50 PM.
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10-26-2021, 08:10 PM
#35
I was hoping he'd come in fighting 
I thought we were back in the glory days of forum fighting
I also want to add that you installed the cam package from Tick, and used the pushrods they supplied. The pushrods should have been measured regardless of the rest of the entire engine staying stock or not. That is just general good practice when doing any cam swap.
I thought we were back in the glory days of forum fightingI also want to add that you installed the cam package from Tick, and used the pushrods they supplied. The pushrods should have been measured regardless of the rest of the entire engine staying stock or not. That is just general good practice when doing any cam swap.
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arthursc2 (10-26-2021)
10-26-2021, 08:19 PM
#36
TECH Enthusiast
Too much cam for the setup. Want torque out of a 4.8 it needs forced induction. For a NA 4.8L the heads need to be milled about 0.030" to add compression before the cam is even considered. Something around 212/218 on a 111 LSA would really bring it to life without killing the idle manners or driveability. My SBC 383 idles very well with a 218/228 @ 0.050 cam cut on a 108 LSA. The hardest part of tuning my 383 was the 4" MAF. The tables were so far off even with the supplied MaF curve. Ended up playing around with it for a few hours and got the MAF nearly spot on. Idle holds around 750 with a nice lopey exhaust sound out of the exhaust cutouts.
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swathdiver (10-27-2021)
10-26-2021, 09:47 PM
#37
@Hardcourt
You mentioned "hi-flow" cats. Can you provide any supporting data? I don't much like this as I feel the OE cats are actually really good. I made 477 thru them with my first P1 build. I see no reason to can them unless you A) melt them or B) looking to increase your noise level
I'd also like to know more about your exhaust in general. Knowing what I know about these motors, they love to breath on the exhaust side. My 1 7/8 headers feed a 3" Y-pipe then merge into a 3.5" all the way out the back. Magnaflow 12909 with a Dynomax Bullet behind it, over the axle and out the passenger rear. But, like I said, I pushed over 2x the factory power thru the bone stock exhaust (remember my truck base lined at 204rwhp)
For ***** and giggles, if you are able, it might behoove you to try a run without the exhaust hooked up. Just to see. If can't hurt except the dyno time cost. Wear ear plugs if you do this
You mentioned "hi-flow" cats. Can you provide any supporting data? I don't much like this as I feel the OE cats are actually really good. I made 477 thru them with my first P1 build. I see no reason to can them unless you A) melt them or B) looking to increase your noise level
I'd also like to know more about your exhaust in general. Knowing what I know about these motors, they love to breath on the exhaust side. My 1 7/8 headers feed a 3" Y-pipe then merge into a 3.5" all the way out the back. Magnaflow 12909 with a Dynomax Bullet behind it, over the axle and out the passenger rear. But, like I said, I pushed over 2x the factory power thru the bone stock exhaust (remember my truck base lined at 204rwhp)
For ***** and giggles, if you are able, it might behoove you to try a run without the exhaust hooked up. Just to see. If can't hurt except the dyno time cost. Wear ear plugs if you do this
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dantheman1540 (10-27-2021)
10-26-2021, 10:09 PM
#39
Some more questions/ clarifications
Are you able to put stock plugs in? NGK TR6s or 7s gapped at .030?
I was going to ask if it was a mech fan truck, but then I read your reply and you have e fans, so that is negated. Were the fans off during the dyno run? I bet the alternator being driven is worth some power if we are chasing peak numbers
It's too late now, but starting the dyno run at over 2400rpm doesn't really tell the story imo. Stall speed on a stock stall is 14-1500 rpm, thats where the dyno run should have started. There are timing changes to be made down there to make her snappier off the line, and you missed out on that from the dyno you posted
I re-read your OP and the cam certainly did help under the curve, it just has a larger delta up top, but its better for the entire range from the start of the pull to the end of the pull. I will scroll back up and study the graph, but what did you all spin the motor to? If you didn't at least try to spin her up and shorted the run at 6k, you also are missing out on data and power. As everyone has said, the 4.8 needs to spin. But also, HP=TQ*RPM/5252. If you have the airflow to support it, the easiest way to make more power is to spin the motor. IMO, you have the air to support it. You're near sea level with the same induction GM put on a 6.0, and we all know the 706 heads can support at least 304rwhp in stock config
With my little analysis done on this, I think it needs to be re-dyno'd and retuned accordingly. I don't think the current config has been maximized and not all data possible has been collected
Are you able to put stock plugs in? NGK TR6s or 7s gapped at .030?
I was going to ask if it was a mech fan truck, but then I read your reply and you have e fans, so that is negated. Were the fans off during the dyno run? I bet the alternator being driven is worth some power if we are chasing peak numbers
It's too late now, but starting the dyno run at over 2400rpm doesn't really tell the story imo. Stall speed on a stock stall is 14-1500 rpm, thats where the dyno run should have started. There are timing changes to be made down there to make her snappier off the line, and you missed out on that from the dyno you posted
I re-read your OP and the cam certainly did help under the curve, it just has a larger delta up top, but its better for the entire range from the start of the pull to the end of the pull. I will scroll back up and study the graph, but what did you all spin the motor to? If you didn't at least try to spin her up and shorted the run at 6k, you also are missing out on data and power. As everyone has said, the 4.8 needs to spin. But also, HP=TQ*RPM/5252. If you have the airflow to support it, the easiest way to make more power is to spin the motor. IMO, you have the air to support it. You're near sea level with the same induction GM put on a 6.0, and we all know the 706 heads can support at least 304rwhp in stock config
With my little analysis done on this, I think it needs to be re-dyno'd and retuned accordingly. I don't think the current config has been maximized and not all data possible has been collected
10-26-2021, 10:18 PM
#40
Its getting late for my tired brain, but looking at the graph, she was still making power. TQ and HP crossed early, but HP was still climbing when the run was ended (at 6200ish?) I think we took my 5.3 to 7200 with the blower and 6700 or so NA. MPH shift point were adjusted both times to take advantage of the higher RPM gains
With the info you've volunteered, I think there is power left to be had. Especially with exhaust mods. Mods that might be free if you have the stock exhaust laying around and don't want the noise or install hassle of LT's
Another free mod that is OEM on the LS6 is to descreen your MAF. I think the jury is out on the impact. LS6's don't have screens and make the most of the Gen3 family. The trucks and "lesser" Gen3's have screens that GM says provide laminar flow across the probes. Regardless, its a mod and OE supported. Also free to try
Sorry for the shotgun posts, I keep thinking of things after making a post
With the info you've volunteered, I think there is power left to be had. Especially with exhaust mods. Mods that might be free if you have the stock exhaust laying around and don't want the noise or install hassle of LT's
Another free mod that is OEM on the LS6 is to descreen your MAF. I think the jury is out on the impact. LS6's don't have screens and make the most of the Gen3 family. The trucks and "lesser" Gen3's have screens that GM says provide laminar flow across the probes. Regardless, its a mod and OE supported. Also free to try
Sorry for the shotgun posts, I keep thinking of things after making a post