HAZE

hey guys, got the 42lb inj's in. did anyone hear me scream noooooo when the little blue oring from the fuel rail cross over pipe fell under the intake manifold ? that little mistake cost me $30. anyway i did what you said changed the ifr to 5.30 and logged it. basically the same readouts as before. slightly higher 02 readings still only high .7s but with more mid.8's, ltft's dropped some seeing some 0's now. at cruise it's somewhat better, but at anything over 60% throttle it's the same crap, ultra low o2's. here's some #s rpm 3500, tp%100, o2's .295, spark 17.0, injdc 43, mph 70, map in Hg 30.4, maf 23.52, ect 172, iat 73, longft 25.0. i'm now getting a flashing whipple warning light at wot. i believe this only reinforces my argument that either my computer is defective or the program is so far off, sending modified signals that aren't even close to the real value ,that the pcm cannot compensate. so what now ? scrap it , go with a vacumn bypass ? try to get whipple to send me a new computer. pack the p.o.s up and try to get my money back ? and get what ? i am so done with this thing i don't know what to do. what do you think ? guess i'll try to log it w/o the comp attached to see what that looks like. e

HAZE

me again, just did several logs with the whipple completly disconnected [ wasn't disconnecting the power wire before] runs good, only 2lbs of boost but my wot o2 #'s are in the high 8's low 9's now [ not .3] ltft's are still positive, guessing avg under +9 . what increments should i adjust the ifr # in ?, what does a .1 drop in ifr translate into ltft % drop ?. trying to get whipple to send me a new computer, or vacumn bypass conversion. if they don't cooperate with my shop, i'm going to try to return it. any advice on a possible replacement ? .e

Ryan23silverado

iTrader: (1)

just use your ltft average that you calculated from the logs (like previously mentioned) and use that number as a percentage to either increase or decrease the ifr numbers. For example your average comes out to +3. 100%-3%= 97% So multiple the existing values in the ifr table by 97% Thus lowering the ifr number. The lower the ifr number the richer. It would be opposite if you had -5 ltft for example. 100%+5%=105% to be multiplied to your existing ifr values to raise the ifr numbers (lean it out).
I don't know of a direct corrolation between ltft decimal value and ifr%. We always use the ltft calculations as a percent multiplier.
Yes I am thinking something is wrong with their computer box. You did the wiring perfectly, correct? I am thinking that you are running pig rich even though you aren't showing to be that rich on the O2s. Your injectors are not a waste dont' worry about that. Just those alone probably picked up 35rwhp (after this tuning/whipple comp. gets solved) with the much better fuel distribution into each cylinder. An accurate air/fuel mixture also helps to prevent detonation when you begin to increase timing.
I hope Whipple sends you a good box and all goes well. My experience is good with them -all others beg to differ.

HAZE

thanks ryan, you answered my question. 1% in the ifr is roughly equivilant to 1% in the ltft's. i am running with the whipple comp completly disconnected, so my o2's seem to be realistic. question ; is it normal for the ltft's to go high at idle [25] ? is there an adjustment for idle ? i've done a couple logs, but the l-trims are all over the place, do i need to do a long steady speed log or is it better for the average if i drive normal [lot of speed variation] ? i've noticed that in certain cells the trims are almost zero and others i'm way off. p.e was brought up in one of these threads but not really discussed, what is it primarily used to adjust for ? thanks ryan, we're getting there.

Ryan23silverado

iTrader: (1)

Log "fuel trim cell" when you do the ltft logs too. You will notice that in certain "fuel teim cells" your ltft will be way off. In your case it is in one of the idle fuel trim cells. When you do a log, I would suggest making a 10-15 mile trip with whatever driving style you normally do. (I do mostly highway, so I logged 26 miles on the highway varying speeds from on average 60-80mph) Log, calculate, tune whatever you normally drive first. Then switch it up. If you drive mostly highway, now log in town with traffic for 10-15miles. Log, calculate and see how much of a variance there is in your calculations. If it is just like one percent, then don't sweat changing it from what conditions you tuned for in the primary driving conditions tune.

Notice since you said you see +25 around the idle area, then try not to go too much in that are in you driving (this is nearly impossible in traffic, but try to keep those super high ltft out of the average) In efIlive you have the option to sellect ltft logs in particular fuel cells. So I believe you can just select the cells you want to average.

Here is another curveball though. Ltft do affect wide open throttle -only if they are postive at wide open throttle. What the ltft means is that say you see a +5. The computer is going to add 5% more fuel than what you ifr is set at when you are at wide open throttle. However, this is not the case say if your ltft are in the negatives, the ltft will not act as a multiplier to pull a percentage of fuel it will just leave it where it is. **What I am saying is that if you do get some +25 readings in there to make the average higher thus making your calculation run the mixture richer (since you are compensating a positive number as a percentage to lower the ifr table values) you will be not affecting fueling if that number is so high that it puts your wide open throttle fuel trim cell in the negatives. But as close to zero -on the negative side- is what you should aim for. As you can imagine a reading of 0 on your ltft is a "perfect" condition where ther is no variance between the fueling the computer sees and the amount that it thinks it should be getting.

Ltrims normally do vary quite a bit when driving around. My averages for my ltft are 0.00131. However when I am driving I often see things jump all over from +9.4 to -4.7 and as high as +25 in the fuel cell that is assigned to when you have given it some throttle and then suddenly let off the gas completely. That is due to your VE table (which I have explained before and am not going to get into agian -very lengthy and complicated)

Lastly PE "power enrichment" is a condition when your computer feeds your engine a multiplied amount of fuel because of a high throttle position reading. In your logs, don't get into PE mode -it will throw off you ltft test pretty badly. Just don't go above 40% throttle on cruise. With a blower it is rare this happens anyway because the amount of low end grunt they provide And don't hit a downshift from like 3rd gear to 2nd gear relatively hard on passing and whatnot. In general log like you would normally drive and if you normally drive with your foot to the floor above 40% throttle (then you've got some serious speed issues j/k) don't do it during a logging sesion.

HAZE

hey ryan, messed with the ifr today. haven't loaded excel into my laptop yet so i'm kinda winging it for today, i will do what you said probably tonight. i did an average manually and came up with 5%, that was way to rich, so i splt it. 5.20 seems to work well, seeing primarily 0 l-trims with a few pos +4 and a few neg -.8 , seeing 0 at wot. idle is varying between +10 to +16 occasionally lower. still only seeing .750 to .775 at normal cruise but ltfts are good at 0. ltft are at .850 to .890 at wot with ltft's at 0. thanks ryan let me know what you think . e

HAZE

i cut that last post short, also wanted to say my shop says whipple is willing too send me another box. guess i'll leave the tune for now, until i get the new computer. regarding the last post and the relatively low o2's at cruise. do you think i should be more in the negative #'s ? when i went 5% it was running really rich with alot of neg ltft's -5 was common, ran lousy no power but o2's were still similar. not throwing codes, do you think i should rely more on the ltft's rather than the o2's ? seems the way my truck is, if i pursue those high o2 #s i'll be pig rich with no power. oh by the way these #'s are with the whipple computer completly bypassed and showing 2.5 lbs of boost on the gauge. power feels good at this setting without hesitation. not sure how much the extra boost will affect these #'s , hopefully not much because this is the most normal my truck has acted since i got the s.c. hope your not sick of hearing it, thanks for all the good info, i'd be lost without it. e

Ryan23silverado

iTrader: (1)

Okay man............................................... ..
You are not tuning your O2s at part throttle. Your O2s will always give your computer the 14.7 air/fuel mixture when you are in closed loop (remember).

5%, how did you come about this? Did you log some runs and calculate this or just guess. You are talking about O2s at cruise conditions again...? You will never change those when you are running in closed loop (non wide open throttle conditions) because it is set in your pcm not to do so. Unless you change the air/fuel you want it to shoot for in open loop (cruise conditions) in edit. Don't do that though.
Again, the only time you should be concerned about O2 readings is when you are at wide open throttle. Worry about your ltft at cruise.
O2s=only concerned at wot
LTFT=concerned mainly at cruise -to get your ifr dialed in.

Yes for sure get that new whipple computer AND go ahead and log your cruising conditions and do the math (trust me it will hit it dead on!) If you just guess, no way are things going to be right. It does sound like you are running super rich right now. Log, calculate, and tune.

Ryan23silverado

iTrader: (1)

do this. don't sweat O2 readings at wide open throttle until this is done.

HAZE

i was guessing more or less, i took a couple logs, watched them and averaged the #'s in my head [not very scientific] but i was taking into account the high idle readings thats what gave me that high #, i logged again and averaged them again in my head. i knew it was too rich by the performance and l-trim #'s so i split the difference between the ifr # i started with and the one i changed it to. ended up at 5.20, logged again, ltfts were dead on 0 for 90% of a 10 min log. the only time it came off 0 was when i idled or backed off the throttle from wot. i'm seeing very little variation in cruise ltft's, and am at 0 at wot. this is good right ?. about the .750 o2 readings at cruise, i was under the impression that you said these were too low, i must have misunderstood. so while in closed loop i don't need to worry about o2's, got it. at wot i'm at .850-890 is that ok ? or should i be higher? and what should i use to richen that up if my ltfts are primarily at 0 during cruise and wot ? sorry about the tuning 101, but i don't think we discussed tuning for wot. do i slightly lower the ifr # to get more fuel at wot or adjust pe or ? . i will get the excel in the computer and do it correctly, but doesn't it sound pretty good for now ? . e