12-13-12 2014 Silverado unveiled
12-14-2012, 08:03 AM
#51
after messing with the lnf {turbo cobalt} on e85, i can say, yes, there is a huge improvement on corn fuel.
you're also going to see a lot of them go boom when/if tuning is released for them. don't think a lot of people are ready for the dedication a tune requires in a di setup
you're also going to see a lot of them go boom when/if tuning is released for them. don't think a lot of people are ready for the dedication a tune requires in a di setup
12-14-2012, 09:57 AM
#53
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i seem to have a knack for making those **** boxes run their little asses off!
there is only so much an ecm can do in terms of adjusting within its predetermined parameters. every ecm has some level of compromise. the fun part is going to come when people start doing cams in these things and all hell breaks lose because they out ran the injection window and have zero ability to adjust the injection timing. your average guy isn't going to know what the hell to do, hence me saying a lot of them going boom, if tuning is released for them via hpt or efi live.
there is only so much an ecm can do in terms of adjusting within its predetermined parameters. every ecm has some level of compromise. the fun part is going to come when people start doing cams in these things and all hell breaks lose because they out ran the injection window and have zero ability to adjust the injection timing. your average guy isn't going to know what the hell to do, hence me saying a lot of them going boom, if tuning is released for them via hpt or efi live.
Last edited by Area47; 12-14-2012 at 10:04 AM.
12-14-2012, 12:36 PM
#56
I have heard this concern before so what do you propose as an alternative? I'm not being condescending, I just mean we ultimately decide the terminology ouselves so what acronym can we all agree on? It needs to be catchy and simple so that everybody adopts it. I use "NNBS" in image, thread or parts seraches all the time because everybody has accepted it as a universal description for the 07.5-2013 trucks. Maybe a generation designation? What Gen is this truck now?
12-14-2012, 12:47 PM
#58
I am pasting this here because it is relavent to the conversation, not in direct response to Area47s post. I have the utmost respect for you guys/gals and just wanted to share the information being posted on tech by the GM engineer.
discuss...
Final got a small amount of GO ahead to explain VVT in the 2014 LT1. So lets get into and I will try to answer all the other questions in my pm's and on the thread in this answer as well
Variable cam timing is a means of precisely controlling the flow of air into and out of an engine by allowing the camshaft to be dynamically phased relative to its crankshaft. This is the water down version "RED TAPE" on extremely accurate details... so to put it simply these are the typical inputs systems are....
Engine Valve Timing systems = ignition systems etc.
Timing Chain Itself = chains are the best solution for timing drives due to compact packaging, optimized efficiency, the ability to minimize dynamic instability, proven long-term field durability and adaptability across multiple engine models.
Variable Cam Timing = ECM and Crankshaft Position data
The phaser = OVC AND OTHER SYSTEMS
Secondary Air systems = PCV VACUUM PUMPS
Actuators = TOP SECRET
Thermal Management components and systems = Enormous amounts of data inputs from sensors. This combats Heat Energy vs Load. And this is some what complex but it dealing with exhaust loss, cooling loss, pumping loss, and mechanical frictional loss.
Then throw in complicated transmission controls and this quickly becomes overwhelming to deal with not to mention the ABS and STABILITY SYSTEMS all functioning as one.
And this is not everything out there yet. No offence to anyone but there are many things that have not been tried yet by the aftermarket. A lot of things I had to leave out due to "RED TAPE."
This is the truth, this is NO reason to be cocky or snuff, this is just a pure simple fact. I am here to answer your questions...There is no such thing as just tuning anymore dealing with VVT, VVC, DI, CVVT + DI or CVVT +VVC + DI + FORCE INDUCTION. There is a few million dominos in the equations/ variables and all it takes is just one domino to change everything.
Then throw in Direct Injection and it really becomes an area you have to have to be some type of expert/guru..
Understanding
What will make the VVT problematic for most...... is the ECM is working serious mathematical equations to make the cam think the intake side of the valves are constantly changing the timing to stay open different durations for optimal a/f ratio configuration.
In reality it's NOT, In VVT the Duration or Lift is not changed, just the timing in VVT. It doesn't matter because it's what the pressures are telling the ECM and this is where VCCT is slightly more complicated as we've given the cam more free range of motion/timing. And that is putting it lightly and watering it down. And yes guys this is all still dealing with just "valve overlap" at the moment, but I will get into that later.
Now in VVC all the cam spec parameters are changing constantly and to deal with this you have to a detail understanding of all systems you have to be a subject matter expert no question about it. You will see this in the LARGER MORE POWERFUL VERSION of the 2014 LT1. Which will have the CAM in CAM system, this is extremely complex as they're are cam phasing, cam lobe switching, and true variable duration.
Variable duration has more effect on power than opening and closing the valve earlier or later as with normal cam phasing cycles aka CVVT/VVT.
This is where the ECM in the 2014 LT1 comes into play. Think of it as a jury of experts engineers from all fields of all systems over the vehicle, receiving data & voting on what outputs are appropriate in nano seconds. Think of the first OS system as a BOARD OF DIRECTORS ...they are free to do as they please as long as the sensors are reporting accurate information/data. However if they get to radical the Second OS steps in to prevent a total destruction of the engine/system/vehicle with the proven stability parameters not marginal stable parameters.
The engine is very advanced, the ECM is highly intelligent when it comes to making decisions based on input data. The engine is slightly and almost at the limits of stable combustion.... Don't panic this does NOT mean it is nearly maxed out in horsepower. It just means modifying the combustion cycle beyond physics is foolish. So what happens? So what Next? A dual mode ECM with even more exotic variables forget about 100's of coefficient models think thousands of engine operating models. The ECM is self aware and can choose what is best your laptop and tuning is NOT needed.
The ECM can and will control VVT to increase valve overlap to the point where the engine can pump air with no load this is done for reasons that I am NOT at liberty to say. When in performance mode and at WOT open throttle while the exhaust valve is open the ECM is will send a bursts of fuel down into the exhaust system this creates a controlled explosion in the exhaust system and this is done for reasons I can't state and will NOT elaborate more on. So DO NOT ASK....
When the average gear head looks at the 2014 LT1 cam specs. He thinks emission cam / gas saver cam and relatively conservative. And those specs are 200intake/207exhaust duration LSA 116.5 ........cam lift intake.551 and exhaust .524
The first thing that person wants to do, due to habit is change the cam for something larger... more aggressive then change the timing and install larger injectors to dump fuel into the cylinders. That works for yesterday's technology and when doing this in these types of engines this is inexperience... what use to work in past engines DOESN"T work in these engines. This is NOT your engine of yesterday. This engine platform is capable of making monstrous horsepower in OEM form. Experience pending of course.... You have to go back to school or enroll in some type of semester course within the technology developers to get a handle on what is happening today.
People will say.... Hey Direct injection has been around a very long time and VVT has been around a very long time... why is it all of a sudden so special/different? It is all about precision and the ultra fine control today's processors will ALLOW for mass production. The ECM allows for more efficiency due to greater processing of equations and variables which allows for greater efficiency/horsepower.
This so called gas saver cam your looking at can do crazy things with extreme valve overlap in performance mode for racing without even touching a control of a laptop. The ECM 92 controller can quickly modify itself to each and every single one RPM in the powerband with extreme precison. We are talking individual RPM, Throttle Inputs, Cam inputs, crankshaft inputs, fuel tables, fuel pressure solenoid and all other systems etc.... they are constantly changing. The ECM 92 is super clever & self aware and combined with this cam will out perform much larger cams, I am 100% sure of it. This is possible due to the complex physics at work in the engine.
What you call emissions standards is what we call captured efficiency. What is emission? Simply put it is wasted potential horsepower....... Everyone is so concern and getting caught up with losing HP/TQ due to the drivetrain drag. That they over look the fact of the matter is most highly modified engines throw away the possible 15%- 20% of dynamic cylinder pressure/ HorsePower into the exhaust system due to excessive inefficiency cams and cylinder head combinations. There is a lot to be gain here.
Then that person spends $1000.00 of dollars changing more parts for more... HP/Cylinder Dynamic Pressure threw cam swaps, intakes, heads.... All your doing is chasing efficiency... and most give up when seeing peak numbers that look impressive and after a while...that horsepower number becomes numb and boring...then is on to repeat the process of changing more parts to raise horsepower....
And the difference is..... Efficiency is combining your parts in a systematic order. And Effectiveness is doing the right thing so that the parts will do their very best.
And if that is hard to understand ..... what that means is .... selective the parts to do the combustion process is just as important as the quality of the process and the parts being used. Optimization is key each and everytime.....
I stated on 12/04/2012 post #350 that GM was going to make a major announcement. However it was delayed until yesterday. And everyone is asking me about the 4.3, 5.3 and 6.2 liter engines in the pm's. Guys you know that I am not at liberty to disclose official output numbers. Please understand that I am here to address your question without over walking the tight rope.
What I can tell you is this.... the 4.3liter V6 engine will out perform a stock LS1 in every area possible. Or to say it another way it will drag the STOCK LS1 ***** against the Asphalt. That should give you some type of gaming changing performance we are looking at going forward.
Bigg Gunz
Variable cam timing is a means of precisely controlling the flow of air into and out of an engine by allowing the camshaft to be dynamically phased relative to its crankshaft. This is the water down version "RED TAPE" on extremely accurate details... so to put it simply these are the typical inputs systems are....
Engine Valve Timing systems = ignition systems etc.
Timing Chain Itself = chains are the best solution for timing drives due to compact packaging, optimized efficiency, the ability to minimize dynamic instability, proven long-term field durability and adaptability across multiple engine models.
Variable Cam Timing = ECM and Crankshaft Position data
The phaser = OVC AND OTHER SYSTEMS
Secondary Air systems = PCV VACUUM PUMPS
Actuators = TOP SECRET
Thermal Management components and systems = Enormous amounts of data inputs from sensors. This combats Heat Energy vs Load. And this is some what complex but it dealing with exhaust loss, cooling loss, pumping loss, and mechanical frictional loss.
Then throw in complicated transmission controls and this quickly becomes overwhelming to deal with not to mention the ABS and STABILITY SYSTEMS all functioning as one.
And this is not everything out there yet. No offence to anyone but there are many things that have not been tried yet by the aftermarket. A lot of things I had to leave out due to "RED TAPE."
This is the truth, this is NO reason to be cocky or snuff, this is just a pure simple fact. I am here to answer your questions...There is no such thing as just tuning anymore dealing with VVT, VVC, DI, CVVT + DI or CVVT +VVC + DI + FORCE INDUCTION. There is a few million dominos in the equations/ variables and all it takes is just one domino to change everything.
Then throw in Direct Injection and it really becomes an area you have to have to be some type of expert/guru..
Understanding
What will make the VVT problematic for most...... is the ECM is working serious mathematical equations to make the cam think the intake side of the valves are constantly changing the timing to stay open different durations for optimal a/f ratio configuration.
In reality it's NOT, In VVT the Duration or Lift is not changed, just the timing in VVT. It doesn't matter because it's what the pressures are telling the ECM and this is where VCCT is slightly more complicated as we've given the cam more free range of motion/timing. And that is putting it lightly and watering it down. And yes guys this is all still dealing with just "valve overlap" at the moment, but I will get into that later.
Now in VVC all the cam spec parameters are changing constantly and to deal with this you have to a detail understanding of all systems you have to be a subject matter expert no question about it. You will see this in the LARGER MORE POWERFUL VERSION of the 2014 LT1. Which will have the CAM in CAM system, this is extremely complex as they're are cam phasing, cam lobe switching, and true variable duration.
Variable duration has more effect on power than opening and closing the valve earlier or later as with normal cam phasing cycles aka CVVT/VVT.
This is where the ECM in the 2014 LT1 comes into play. Think of it as a jury of experts engineers from all fields of all systems over the vehicle, receiving data & voting on what outputs are appropriate in nano seconds. Think of the first OS system as a BOARD OF DIRECTORS ...they are free to do as they please as long as the sensors are reporting accurate information/data. However if they get to radical the Second OS steps in to prevent a total destruction of the engine/system/vehicle with the proven stability parameters not marginal stable parameters.
The engine is very advanced, the ECM is highly intelligent when it comes to making decisions based on input data. The engine is slightly and almost at the limits of stable combustion.... Don't panic this does NOT mean it is nearly maxed out in horsepower. It just means modifying the combustion cycle beyond physics is foolish. So what happens? So what Next? A dual mode ECM with even more exotic variables forget about 100's of coefficient models think thousands of engine operating models. The ECM is self aware and can choose what is best your laptop and tuning is NOT needed.
The ECM can and will control VVT to increase valve overlap to the point where the engine can pump air with no load this is done for reasons that I am NOT at liberty to say. When in performance mode and at WOT open throttle while the exhaust valve is open the ECM is will send a bursts of fuel down into the exhaust system this creates a controlled explosion in the exhaust system and this is done for reasons I can't state and will NOT elaborate more on. So DO NOT ASK....
When the average gear head looks at the 2014 LT1 cam specs. He thinks emission cam / gas saver cam and relatively conservative. And those specs are 200intake/207exhaust duration LSA 116.5 ........cam lift intake.551 and exhaust .524
The first thing that person wants to do, due to habit is change the cam for something larger... more aggressive then change the timing and install larger injectors to dump fuel into the cylinders. That works for yesterday's technology and when doing this in these types of engines this is inexperience... what use to work in past engines DOESN"T work in these engines. This is NOT your engine of yesterday. This engine platform is capable of making monstrous horsepower in OEM form. Experience pending of course.... You have to go back to school or enroll in some type of semester course within the technology developers to get a handle on what is happening today.
People will say.... Hey Direct injection has been around a very long time and VVT has been around a very long time... why is it all of a sudden so special/different? It is all about precision and the ultra fine control today's processors will ALLOW for mass production. The ECM allows for more efficiency due to greater processing of equations and variables which allows for greater efficiency/horsepower.
This so called gas saver cam your looking at can do crazy things with extreme valve overlap in performance mode for racing without even touching a control of a laptop. The ECM 92 controller can quickly modify itself to each and every single one RPM in the powerband with extreme precison. We are talking individual RPM, Throttle Inputs, Cam inputs, crankshaft inputs, fuel tables, fuel pressure solenoid and all other systems etc.... they are constantly changing. The ECM 92 is super clever & self aware and combined with this cam will out perform much larger cams, I am 100% sure of it. This is possible due to the complex physics at work in the engine.
What you call emissions standards is what we call captured efficiency. What is emission? Simply put it is wasted potential horsepower....... Everyone is so concern and getting caught up with losing HP/TQ due to the drivetrain drag. That they over look the fact of the matter is most highly modified engines throw away the possible 15%- 20% of dynamic cylinder pressure/ HorsePower into the exhaust system due to excessive inefficiency cams and cylinder head combinations. There is a lot to be gain here.
Then that person spends $1000.00 of dollars changing more parts for more... HP/Cylinder Dynamic Pressure threw cam swaps, intakes, heads.... All your doing is chasing efficiency... and most give up when seeing peak numbers that look impressive and after a while...that horsepower number becomes numb and boring...then is on to repeat the process of changing more parts to raise horsepower....
And the difference is..... Efficiency is combining your parts in a systematic order. And Effectiveness is doing the right thing so that the parts will do their very best.
And if that is hard to understand ..... what that means is .... selective the parts to do the combustion process is just as important as the quality of the process and the parts being used. Optimization is key each and everytime.....
I stated on 12/04/2012 post #350 that GM was going to make a major announcement. However it was delayed until yesterday. And everyone is asking me about the 4.3, 5.3 and 6.2 liter engines in the pm's. Guys you know that I am not at liberty to disclose official output numbers. Please understand that I am here to address your question without over walking the tight rope.
What I can tell you is this.... the 4.3liter V6 engine will out perform a stock LS1 in every area possible. Or to say it another way it will drag the STOCK LS1 ***** against the Asphalt. That should give you some type of gaming changing performance we are looking at going forward.
Bigg Gunz
discuss...
