Cam for most power under the curve through stock heads?
12-02-2009, 07:00 PM
#52
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12-02-2009, 07:18 PM
#53
Yeah I definitely opened up a can of worms with that one.
Some of the reverse split cams over on the Tech side have performed quite well and I don't think anybody that had one was disappointed. The two main ones I'm thinking of are the MTI X1 and the TR230. They make good power for bolt-on only cars with a nice torque curve.
I never said they were the best; just broadening the spectrum of available cams. The best bet still is to get someone to spec one out.
While they aren't the best; neither is a single pattern. If the intake and heads on the ls-based engines are so great we should just leave them alone.....no cam swaps either since GM spent sooooooo much time designing the perfect cam for their application.
Matter of fact, we should all trade our trucks in for hybrids. They're so awesome that they only need their engines to run half the time.
Some of the reverse split cams over on the Tech side have performed quite well and I don't think anybody that had one was disappointed. The two main ones I'm thinking of are the MTI X1 and the TR230. They make good power for bolt-on only cars with a nice torque curve.
I never said they were the best; just broadening the spectrum of available cams. The best bet still is to get someone to spec one out.
While they aren't the best; neither is a single pattern. If the intake and heads on the ls-based engines are so great we should just leave them alone.....no cam swaps either since GM spent sooooooo much time designing the perfect cam for their application.
Matter of fact, we should all trade our trucks in for hybrids. They're so awesome that they only need their engines to run half the time.
12-03-2009, 12:09 PM
#56
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I talked to mark(predator-z) on tech he helped me spec a cam suited for me. Very knowlegeble guy. Power will be similar maybe a slight edge on a tr220 but will come on stronger lower in the rpm.
12-03-2009, 05:55 PM
#57
This is not true. Elliot Lloyd uses reverse split cams a lot and there is a member here running his 218/214 in a 6.0 and says it has outstanding torque under the curve. Reverse splits are more suitable to engines with restrictive intakes. The requirement however is an outstanding freeflowing exhaust. You would not want to use a reverse split with a stock exhaust. Gotta think outside the box and don't always trust what everyone else is saying.
They are making use of the fully vetted theory that backpressure makes TQ. Before you jump down my throat, I fully understand the basis behind the harmonically tuned intake, as evidenced by VEs regularly surpassing 100%. That doesn't change the fact that backpressure makes TQ. You can see this in a before and after graph of a exhaust install. It will make more tq after, but it will make it higher in the band. The idea behind the rev. split is to get the TQ to come in sooner, providing a broader tq curve, with a lower peak tq #. If you are running a 3K or higher converter, I personally think that you are stalling yourself right into the latter half of where a rev. split would shine. One of the downfalls of the rev split is you are grinding in a choke collar in the higher rpms. That is where the exhaust really needs to get the hell out of the way, to make room for more a/f, so in that respect, you get lower peak #s, but overall better power under the curve compared to a cam of similar lift and duration in a single or traditional split pattern.
care to share the specs? Via PM?
12-03-2009, 11:03 PM
#58
You have some points there about gettin the torque peak to occur lower in the rpm band, "Not the same but similer" i Have personal Experience with dual pattern cams in 5-700hp Pontiacs with Very efficient cnc ported cylinder heads, we tried many different cams with bigger ex lobes we were able to extend the rpm range and at the same time keep the intake lobe small which kept the engine from losing too much low end Street/strip cam, we made 628hp at 5900 and 635tq at 3900 with a 468cid poncho, The Short intake/ Long Dur ex lobe sounds Wicked too, combine it with a narrow 110 or less Lobe sep and go rattle windows, Look at comps new Thumper grinds, 227-241 107-109 lobe sep Yikes, Overlap is what makes cams sound wicked, reverse cam should sound milder in most apps imho
12-04-2009, 01:13 AM
#59
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MPFD is just regurgitating Bauer sermons and has NO personal data or live experience on RS cams to talk about.
It is all about "where do you want your trq band at" and that is dictated by valve events in a particular combination.
RS cams are so bad
, that is why they are capable of making 400lbs at 3500 rpms in 346ci (H/C). (see below graph, C5, M6, Cartek 4x heads, stock valves + bolt ons). Cam is (230/228 .612, .588 110-1 LSA)
It is also a matter of ideology preference. Some poeple are so bottlenecked in their own beliefs that they are unnable to think outside the box. Funny part is they truly believe it so much that they are unnable to accept live concrete data on the subject.
Bottom line it is all about combination and how you are going to use it.
There are a few like Elliot LLoyd, myself to name a couple that have extensively used RS cams for particular applications with excellent results (no matter what naysayers may dish out). Again, bottom line is results and they speak for themselves.
BTW, the LSA/ICL is just byproduct of valve events. Meaning that you choose your valve events and that is where the LSA/ICL end up being. What goes into play is also lobe/lift chosen (for lobe profile at various lifts). See .050 spcs only give part of the full spectrum of any cam specs and most cam designers will start cam specs by looking at .006 lifts and beyond throughout the stroke cycles.
So as I keep saying, you cannot have a cam that has it all. What benefits one area will be a deficiency in another. Cam designing is a tug of war and it is up to the individual to decide which powerband will benefit his application the most and therefore apply specs based on that. There are grinds that compromise (a bit of this and a bit of that), but i've yet to see the cam that will do it all, meaning being optimum on ALL angles.
It is all about "where do you want your trq band at" and that is dictated by valve events in a particular combination.
RS cams are so bad
, that is why they are capable of making 400lbs at 3500 rpms in 346ci (H/C). (see below graph, C5, M6, Cartek 4x heads, stock valves + bolt ons). Cam is (230/228 .612, .588 110-1 LSA)It is also a matter of ideology preference. Some poeple are so bottlenecked in their own beliefs that they are unnable to think outside the box. Funny part is they truly believe it so much that they are unnable to accept live concrete data on the subject.
Bottom line it is all about combination and how you are going to use it.
There are a few like Elliot LLoyd, myself to name a couple that have extensively used RS cams for particular applications with excellent results (no matter what naysayers may dish out). Again, bottom line is results and they speak for themselves.
BTW, the LSA/ICL is just byproduct of valve events. Meaning that you choose your valve events and that is where the LSA/ICL end up being. What goes into play is also lobe/lift chosen (for lobe profile at various lifts). See .050 spcs only give part of the full spectrum of any cam specs and most cam designers will start cam specs by looking at .006 lifts and beyond throughout the stroke cycles.
So as I keep saying, you cannot have a cam that has it all. What benefits one area will be a deficiency in another. Cam designing is a tug of war and it is up to the individual to decide which powerband will benefit his application the most and therefore apply specs based on that. There are grinds that compromise (a bit of this and a bit of that), but i've yet to see the cam that will do it all, meaning being optimum on ALL angles.
12-04-2009, 06:15 AM
#60
I'm closing this thread now fellas. The OP looks like he found a cam.
Cam shaft designs exist for a reason, be it forward split, reverse split or single pattern, and unless you really understand valve event theory, those reasons may appear to by opague or even non-sense. Rest assured, however, that no one would design a cam that is essentially useless and doesn't provide a specific benefit.
Cam shaft designs exist for a reason, be it forward split, reverse split or single pattern, and unless you really understand valve event theory, those reasons may appear to by opague or even non-sense. Rest assured, however, that no one would design a cam that is essentially useless and doesn't provide a specific benefit.
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