Some Valve Spring Info Courtesy of my Pop (long and winded lol)
05-05-2011, 08:25 PM
#21
If I ever do a "real" build, I'm goin w/. lite wtg steel retainers or ti. I wanted to go w/. Ti this time but 2 things stopped me.
1) I already had my steel factory ones, albeit used.
2) I started hearing stories.
You better or else.
And yes, u can get over to shop!!!
Do it during the day. I know she can't be home all hours of the day & night.
I think I know the diff, but what's a static vs a dynamic spring check? Is that where u said bench check but not in car running?
Interesting how when ya get to the top tier of racing, or upper tiers, what they deem as acceptacle for their abuse & precautionary measures.
Also, how RPMs can be higher, yet they lasted.
WAG.
2 Roger's make a right?
I'm not surprised if he doesn't know what's in his own backyard!!!
Ask him where Jesel is located?!? 
1) I already had my steel factory ones, albeit used.
2) I started hearing stories.
You better or else.
And yes, u can get over to shop!!!
Do it during the day. I know she can't be home all hours of the day & night.
I think I know the diff, but what's a static vs a dynamic spring check? Is that where u said bench check but not in car running?
Interesting how when ya get to the top tier of racing, or upper tiers, what they deem as acceptacle for their abuse & precautionary measures.
Also, how RPMs can be higher, yet they lasted.
WAG.
2 Roger's make a right?
I'm not surprised if he doesn't know what's in his own backyard!!!
Ask him where Jesel is located?!?
He did tell me that his cars in that he used to drive every day, and drive to the track (10 sec 67 Nova, 13 sec El Camino, there were others I believe) all had dual springs with ti-retainers.
I know the stories that you heard Tom, and I asked my dad about that (wear and longevity issues with the ti retainers), and, as I mentioned earlier, he said that he's only seen that as a problem with the springs with the flat dampeners on the ends. I'll bet that if you were to put one up against the other (light steel vs. titanium) in an endurance test that the steel would win, but that's just my hypothesis.
As for getting over to my dad's shop, that was the plan this week, but I got hit with some papers from the ex-wife on tues, summoning me to court on the 27th, and demanding over $6000 that I definitely don't have. I've been scrambling all week trying to get some ducks in a row, and praying that I don't get arrested when I can't pay
Actually, I got cleared to go back to work tomorrow, but have to go to the nj bar assoc tomorrow and try to get some legal advice, as well as try to take care of getting the trial postponed if possible. My next tattoo might come from my cell mate...and hopefully that's all 
Static vs. Dynamic is basically at rest vs. in motion. When you static test a spring you use a pressure tester (my pop has this high tech one that's integrated with a computer) for spring load, check height and installed height, and check for coil bind. He may check other stuff too but I'm not sure. So you're basically just bench testing. The dynamic characteristics of a spring are how a spring reacts while in use on the engine. I've seen videos on youtube of springs in motion, I believe that they use a high performance SpinTron tester? I'll link to a few videos in another post. I'm going to have to assume that a SpinTron tester is extremely expensive and a tool that my pop does not have. I'll ask him about that when I see him next.
You know that I know where Jesel is, as I got lost in their neighborhood and made a u-turn in their parking lot and told you all about it
...I should've lied about the Manley thing and saved myself some abuse j/k of course
05-05-2011, 08:50 PM
#22
Something else that might be worth considering is the style of lifter being used, curious what the majority of his race engines get? Solid, roller, flat tappet, hydraulic? I'm sure that should be considered also...
Here's a few cool videos that I found...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfmb-tCo2yA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=019Jy...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vz4m...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_tbt...eature=related
Here's a few cool videos that I found...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfmb-tCo2yA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=019Jy...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vz4m...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_tbt...eature=related
05-05-2011, 09:09 PM
#24
My pop did mention the lightweight steel ones that are available as an alternative, but they're still about 50% (I think, maybe less) heavier than the ti retainers, and he wants the valve side of the rocker as light as possible. You have to remember though, the majority of his customers are hard core bracket racers, many who's cars sleep in a trailer at the track all week... The majority of us drive our trucks to the track, and every day for that matter.
He did tell me that his cars in that he used to drive every day, and drive to the track ... all had dual springs with ti-retainers.
I know the stories that you heard Tom, and I asked my dad about that (wear and longevity issues with the ti retainers), and, as I mentioned earlier, he said that he's only seen that as a problem with the springs with the flat dampeners on the ends. I'll bet that if you were to put one up against the other (light steel vs. titanium) in an endurance test that the steel would win, but that's just my hypothesis.
Static vs. Dynamic is basically at rest vs. in motion. When you static test a spring you use a pressure tester (my pop has this high tech one that's integrated with a computer) for spring load, check height and installed height, and check for coil bind. He may check other stuff too but I'm not sure. So you're basically just bench testing. The dynamic characteristics of a spring are how a spring reacts while in use on the engine. I've seen videos on youtube of springs in motion, I believe that they use a high performance SpinTron tester?
You know that I know where Jesel is, as I got lost in their neighborhood and made a u-turn in their parking lot and told you all about it ...I should've lied about the Manley thing and saved myself some abuse j/k of course
He did tell me that his cars in that he used to drive every day, and drive to the track ... all had dual springs with ti-retainers.
I know the stories that you heard Tom, and I asked my dad about that (wear and longevity issues with the ti retainers), and, as I mentioned earlier, he said that he's only seen that as a problem with the springs with the flat dampeners on the ends. I'll bet that if you were to put one up against the other (light steel vs. titanium) in an endurance test that the steel would win, but that's just my hypothesis.
Static vs. Dynamic is basically at rest vs. in motion. When you static test a spring you use a pressure tester (my pop has this high tech one that's integrated with a computer) for spring load, check height and installed height, and check for coil bind. He may check other stuff too but I'm not sure. So you're basically just bench testing. The dynamic characteristics of a spring are how a spring reacts while in use on the engine. I've seen videos on youtube of springs in motion, I believe that they use a high performance SpinTron tester?
You know that I know where Jesel is, as I got lost in their neighborhood and made a u-turn in their parking lot and told you all about it
...I should've lied about the Manley thing and saved myself some abuse j/k of course
Like said, on a build from scratch, they'll be considered, a.w.a. ti.
U bring up a great point for everyone, that (most) of us DD our trucks, not drag queens only; & I don't believe that point should be taken lightly. You'll figure that out in a minute.
Also, for what Ti retainers cost, I'd be
if I used Ti & hadta replace later w/. lite steel ret.Just thought I'd point that out.
GL on legal woes; gotta love her.
And GL on next tat.
You're not like that (a liar) but I just found it funny I live what ? 800 mi away yet I knew where Jesel was long before you.
Another pt. I liked is where your Dad said Comp wins by sheer advertising space - ever seen a pg. long ad by the other players?
Most buy based on what they see, hear & of course, can afford. Needs should go in the mix.
Wouldn't u or others be running some Jesel, T&D or YellaTerra shaft mts. if ya could afford em?
Last edited by fastnblu; 05-05-2011 at 09:15 PM.
05-06-2011, 01:02 AM
#26
Thanks for those vids Billy. I've never seen valvesprings in action "slo-motion" before. There's a whole lot more going on there that I imagined, to say the least.
I'm still trying to figure that last vid's concept out. No valve spring. Adjustable rocker arm. Solid or hydraulic lifters? Something's gotta be holding that rocker up there against the adjuster..... What keeps the lifter against the cam on the backside of the lobe? Now I wanna know how the whole thing works! Damn!
Also, I'd guess that the valveguides would wear out alot faster with a rocker-to-valve setup like that.
I'm still trying to figure that last vid's concept out. No valve spring. Adjustable rocker arm. Solid or hydraulic lifters? Something's gotta be holding that rocker up there against the adjuster..... What keeps the lifter against the cam on the backside of the lobe? Now I wanna know how the whole thing works! Damn!
Also, I'd guess that the valveguides would wear out alot faster with a rocker-to-valve setup like that.
05-06-2011, 05:56 PM
#27
Thanks for those vids Billy. I've never seen valvesprings in action "slo-motion" before. There's a whole lot more going on there that I imagined, to say the least.
I'm still trying to figure that last vid's concept out. No valve spring. Adjustable rocker arm. Solid or hydraulic lifters? Something's gotta be holding that rocker up there against the adjuster..... What keeps the lifter against the cam on the backside of the lobe? Now I wanna know how the whole thing works! Damn!
Also, I'd guess that the valveguides would wear out alot faster with a rocker-to-valve setup like that.
I'm still trying to figure that last vid's concept out. No valve spring. Adjustable rocker arm. Solid or hydraulic lifters? Something's gotta be holding that rocker up there against the adjuster..... What keeps the lifter against the cam on the backside of the lobe? Now I wanna know how the whole thing works! Damn!
Also, I'd guess that the valveguides would wear out alot faster with a rocker-to-valve setup like that.
I had seen similar vids a while ago so I went a searchin' There's another vid, that has been posted on this site somewhere, of the valves bouncing off of their seats due to inadequate spring pressure, I'm still trying to track that one down It's amazing how much is going on while that spring is in action for sure! I'm a little skeptical about the springless valvetrain myself, but it's very interesting. BTW, I know that you've been running the Crane duals for quite some time now, and personally, I've always thought that they were the best available, and I've never heard any negatives about them. My pop told me who makes the springs for Crane IIRC, but I can't remember who it is...Associated maybe? Can't remember, but pop didn't say anything negative. I was checking out their website and it appears that they have the flat dampeners...if you wouldn't mind, in 20k from now when you swap them out, could you inspect the ti retainers and let us know how they look? Dad had said how it's possible for the dampeners to dig into the retainers, but didn't say that it happens all of the time
Here's some info that was emailed to me today from Comp Cams...some good stuff and some valve spring handling practices that I can honestly say I've never followed (such as wearing gloves when handling springs). Funny that this good info is from Comp, who buys their springs from the lowest bidder and has a monumental failure rate
http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/maxim....html?AID=3236
Then I went to Crane's site to check out their duals, and found this cool pdf:
http://cranecams.com/334-336_338-339_343-347.pdf
05-06-2011, 11:12 PM
#28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocfIYUc5bpU
Ducati motorcycles have used springless engines for years, known as desmotronic valve train.
Uses a opening and closing rocker arms and cams
Ducati motorcycles have used springless engines for years, known as desmotronic valve train.
Uses a opening and closing rocker arms and cams
05-07-2011, 01:09 AM
#30
Bud, your pops Know his stuff for sure man, thanks for sharing that great info with us!! He is not the first guru that said patriot is crap. I am running them now, but not even close on the LS1. I have been told that the off the shelf guys get their springs from brazil, where the bad 918's came from I think. These springs are the ones most of us run. Pac makes a great spring, and even makes custom coiled springs for any app. The other top 4 guys you wrote about are on the same level!! My head porter does port design for some nascar teams, and flow testing and design for a dozen other high end race teams. He has tested just about every off the shelf ls1 spring, and he found that the spring rates wont allow the valve to reach the full lift of your camshaft. He said that you would get ~.550" at normal 2000-3000 rpms around town, but a WOT you get less than .500" lift out of a .600" lift cam.
He designed a custom set of LS1 valve springs that he gets PAC to build for him, along with a Ti retainer. Seat pressure and open pressures were higher than your normal PG, or PRC. But he claims they will net you more stable valve events, and get close to cam lift. Which = more power. They are duals too. I am excited to try them, but the price would turn most away....~$550 a set.... He also says that with a street/strip app, you will not need to change them evey 30k. I asked him about when I should change mine on the "getting built now" LS1, and he said" if the motor last 100k miles then change them then"...lol
He designed a custom set of LS1 valve springs that he gets PAC to build for him, along with a Ti retainer. Seat pressure and open pressures were higher than your normal PG, or PRC. But he claims they will net you more stable valve events, and get close to cam lift. Which = more power. They are duals too. I am excited to try them, but the price would turn most away....~$550 a set.... He also says that with a street/strip app, you will not need to change them evey 30k. I asked him about when I should change mine on the "getting built now" LS1, and he said" if the motor last 100k miles then change them then"...lol