Houston Area March 19th GTG at HRP
03-09-2006, 02:52 PM
#761
Yeah Curt has a 5.3 but he ahs forged pistons. Thats how he can handle all the boost. He made 600 and somethin rwhp I believe with the heads lifting. You are going to need a different cam, get the 60# injectors cause you will need them later since you WILL go bigger when a bigger motor is put in there. The 67mm will ahve a little lag but will give oyu better mileage since oyu will stay out of PE mode more but have a absolutely wicked boost curve. Somethin like a 200 shot hittin you in the *** but spread over a second or so which is good for your drivetrain. Lemme know if you need someone to install it. Hmm nitrous and boost
03-09-2006, 03:14 PM
#762
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Originally Posted by ap2002
by the way, I just picked up the truck from the tranny and WOW!!! 
truck shifts like a ****!!! the 1-2shift barks like crazy and the rear of the truck want to go to the side!! we'll just have to see how long it will last!!! truely I recommend this guy to anyone in the Houston area, he did a damn good job.... then we even went to his house to pick-up his truck (ECSB 6.0, turbo, on 22's) and he let me test drive it.. WOW!!! I have never even been on a truck with a turbo and much less drive it!!! now I am jealous of all you guys with the turbo's!!!.... I think I am convinced what my next mod will be! I wonder how the 5.3 with a turbo will do?? I think the 6.0 is gonna have to wait for a while!!! it is just unbelievable how a turbo just pulls!!! he also has some caltracs on his truck and damn you can feel them work good!! he thinks there is something wrong on his tuning, and I think I convinced him to go to allen's so he can get him fixed up.... I might be taking that road trip with him...
truck shifts like a ****!!! the 1-2shift barks like crazy and the rear of the truck want to go to the side!! we'll just have to see how long it will last!!! truely I recommend this guy to anyone in the Houston area, he did a damn good job.... then we even went to his house to pick-up his truck (ECSB 6.0, turbo, on 22's) and he let me test drive it.. WOW!!! I have never even been on a truck with a turbo and much less drive it!!! now I am jealous of all you guys with the turbo's!!!.... I think I am convinced what my next mod will be! I wonder how the 5.3 with a turbo will do?? I think the 6.0 is gonna have to wait for a while!!! it is just unbelievable how a turbo just pulls!!! he also has some caltracs on his truck and damn you can feel them work good!! he thinks there is something wrong on his tuning, and I think I convinced him to go to allen's so he can get him fixed up.... I might be taking that road trip with him...
03-09-2006, 03:42 PM
#763
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I just got the truck out of the tranny shop today and already had my first kill!! ~90-92mustang GT... we went from about a 10mph roll and by 100 I had about 2 trucks on him... then I slowed down and we went from a 35mph roll (sweet spot) and by 110mph I had about 1truck on him!!! the look on the guys face was priceless, dont know what exactly it had but I could hear a mild cam and exhaust for sure....
~90-92mustang GT... we went from about a 10mph roll and by 100 I had about 2 trucks on him... then I slowed down and we went from a 35mph roll (sweet spot) and by 110mph I had about 1truck on him!!! the look on the guys face was priceless, dont know what exactly it had but I could hear a mild cam and exhaust for sure....
03-09-2006, 03:59 PM
#766
I can tell you guys right now hard parts alone for a FULLY built trans like mine is/was will run you 14-1600. Thats EVERYTHING though AP may not have done everything.
Here is a write up by Hit Man X who is somewhat of a tranny guru IMO very informative:
THESE ARE JUST A FEW BASICS:
1 - A quality paper and rubber kit, be sure to use new bushings as well as bearings too
2 - Take up the end play, and verify the clutch pack clearances. End play and slop helps kill transmissions almost as quick as heat does.
3 - Throw away the "load release" springs out of the 3-4 clutch pack.
4 - Use high quality frictions and steels. Alto Red Eagles, Raybestos Blue Plates, Borg Warner Tans.
5 - Toss check ball from: input shaft, No 5, and No 3.
6 - Block the 4th accumulator
7 - Ditch the servo check ball and capsule from case, install a cup plug in place.
8 - Check 2-4 band clearance
9 - BIG transmission fluid cooler
10 - HO Pump slide spring and Hardened Pump Rings
11 - TransGo Hardened Sep Plate
12 - Replace all the solenoids on a higher milage rebuild
13 - Get a 4x4 pan at least, holds 1qt more than the 2x4 pan. Or go with a quality cast aluminum aftermarket... B&M, Hughes, etc.
Sonnax Pinless Aluminum Forward Accumulator - Stock can be plastic, this is pinless. Seems to be fine here taking place of GM unit.
GM Aluminum 1-2, 3-4 Acuumulator - Stock is usually plastic, cracks, loses pressure. GM ones are fine here, these work best. The Sonnax ones are for OE accumulator pistons.
Sonnax Servo Release Check Valve - Limits 3-2 downshift tieup/burning. Works very well.
Sonnax Fwd/Rev Abuse Bore Plug - Prevents burning of the clutch packs and band, go into the valve body.
Sonnax TCC Lockup Conversion - Makes TCC Lockup an ON/OFF setup, costly for just yourself but works well. The TransGo kits do a lot for TCC operation themselves so don't think it just remains "blah" with a TG kit.
TransGo Hi-RPM 3-4 Spring Pack - Resist centrifical apply of the 3-4 pack in 1st and 2nd gears at high RPM.
TransGo shift kit - .500 boost valve, 1-2 accum spring, fixes problems like...3-4 burnup, 2-3 overlap, delay bangs, poor 3-2 kickdown, etc. PSK or HD2 kits.
Superior Intermediate Super Servo - greater band holding power, much better 2-3 shifts, excellent 1-2 shifts, 35% more apply than 'Vette servo. Best with bigger stalls.
Superior Overdrive Super Servo - greater holding power in 4th, much better 3-4 shifts, 50% more apply than OE part, comes with billet cover too
TransGo Vac Modulated Shift Setup - This uses a Vac Operated shift modulator that replaces the EPC (pressure solenoid) from a Ford C4 transmission to control shifts. High vac is tamer shifts and low vac is firmer shifts. It's a pretty trick setup and runs about $90 more, but it will keep line pressure constant under high RPM/high loads...which is good. It takes the PCM out of the loop for that.
The biggie with it is you can't have a cam with no vac at idle or you'll have brutal shifts all the time, exactly what ya don't want. So if you go with a VM setup, pick a cam that provides decent idle vac.
Clutches and Band:
2-4 Band - Black Kevlar Lined 2-4 Band OR Kevlar (Std) 2-4 Band OR Alto 2-4 Band (Some Alto and Std Kevlar requires wider input drum) - greater holding capacity, less likely to break off band anchor than OE, anchor on the Altos are 60% greater. Oversized Kevlar and Alto are 3/8 wider that stock band. Most late hardened input drums from TDE are ready for the wider band. The standard band is still wider than pretty much all other transmissions so it's not a necessity. I'd run a Red Alto one...Kevlar likes to burn and you're not going to give up a lot on the shifts with the Alto band.
IMO - No need for an even wider 2-4 band, the 4L60E has the widest band in any automatic. No one I've seen has burned one up in a stock trans, so just go with a performance band in a stock width. Will save money so you don't need a 100% true drum for it to ride on.
3-4 Clutch Pack - This is highly debated. 6 Blue Plates, 8 BW Tans, 13 in the Z Pac, 9 Alto, etc. Whatever you choose, I'd try to stick with the OE thickness steels to resist heat. That usually limits you to 7-8 clutches, so pick your poison there. You can special order full thickness Alto clutches and steels...
Low/Reverse and Forward - You don't need anything exotic here as these are only applied from very slow speeds or in a stopped position. Again, pick what you like.
HARD PARTS:
29 Element Foreward Input Sprag - far better in HO applications
13 Vane Pump Conversion Kit - extra fluid flow at higher RPMs, I've heard from a few sources (good ones) that the '99 and newer trucks have this already. So, I'd wait until you tear it down to see.
Heavy Duty 5 Pinion Front Planetary - 5 pinions vs 4, stronger under load, hardened gears, made of powered metal
Heavy Duty 5 Pinion Rear Planetary - 5 pinions vs 4, stronger under load, hardened gears, made of powered metal
The deal with the 5 pinion planets is sure they're stronger BUT they lose oil flow at higher RPMs. If you plan to swing past 6200rpm on a regular basis the 4 pinion planets are a better bet. The 5's are for lower than 6000 operation, so if you plan that then I'd consider them. If you don't, then go with the 4s (which you already have) and same some money.
Heavy Duty Reaction Carrier Shaft - eliminates need for thrust washers, works in conjunction with the Sun Gear Shell
Heavy Duty Reaction Sun Gear Shell - limits cracking and splitting on bearing area
Increases durability of the internals big time, these two parts are very weak.
Heavy Duty Input Shaft and Drum - After a good amount of research and discussion, these parts have been determined to be not needed. The stock input drum does like to split at the splines as it's aluminum and the shaft steel so there is a kit that will reinforce this for about $40. Also has a bigger clutch piston. No need to have the drum to be able to spin to 9000rpm+... as the motor will never see those RPM anyway.
Heavy Duty Output Shaft - limits broken shafts on high RPM kickdowns. Now this is a good piece. There are hardened stock and billet ones. If you plan to kickdown from 3rd to 1st from about 45mph a lot with a good amount of torque or 3rd to 2nd around 75mph... I'd get this. The 60E can take the upshifts but not the downshifts.
Now, everyone should have a great idea of what needs to be included in their transmission. I also have a big write up on torque converters, that can be posted up if need be. Obviously if you aren't make 500HP, you don't need an insane build like this whereby a few pieces can be deleted. But as I say, Do it right the first time. No sense on doing something halfway then wishing you had done something else. If you are already spending the money, a few $100 more won't break the bank.
Any good rebuild kit should have most of these parts, the specific parts needed will be per kit. KDSperformance.com stocks tons of parts as does Transmission Center, little parts come from Transmissionpartsusa.com. Also Bulkpart.com is back up too. Anything else a trans shop should be able to get.
Once you have that stuff done, then it comes down to the builder. Some like tight clearances for less slop, others like looser for less drag. Really depends. I'd shoot for the medium to tight on them. I haven't built one to have it blow up so I can't say what would work better in what scenario. Tight may be better for HO apps and looser for towing.
Additionally, many hard parts can be cryogenically treated and stress relieved to increase strength and duraibility...sure it costs more but when you are pushing the limits of the 4L60E you need everything done. Once your internals are fully prepped to resist breaking, I begin to see the 3-4 pack burn up...I believe mainly due to insufficient fluid flow and incorrect clearances mostly. I have noticed that you can run even thinner steels and run thinner clutches in the 3-4 and forward gear to be able add more holding power BUT then you induce more heat. I am unsure of any additional holding power with the thinner frictions and steels as if you add too many thin ones you may lose the additional holding power by the abundance of the frictions and steels in the pack. Additional clutches in the 3-4 may require machining to fit also.
Finally super hard shifts are bad even on the best internals. Just go with a fully installed TransGo, NO washers in the 1-2 accumulator, and servos dependant on your converter for an excellent shifting as well as not overly hard trans. Keep feed holes smaller to resist "banging" or too firm of shifts also.
Good **** IMO
Here is a write up by Hit Man X who is somewhat of a tranny guru IMO very informative:
THESE ARE JUST A FEW BASICS:
1 - A quality paper and rubber kit, be sure to use new bushings as well as bearings too
2 - Take up the end play, and verify the clutch pack clearances. End play and slop helps kill transmissions almost as quick as heat does.
3 - Throw away the "load release" springs out of the 3-4 clutch pack.
4 - Use high quality frictions and steels. Alto Red Eagles, Raybestos Blue Plates, Borg Warner Tans.
5 - Toss check ball from: input shaft, No 5, and No 3.
6 - Block the 4th accumulator
7 - Ditch the servo check ball and capsule from case, install a cup plug in place.
8 - Check 2-4 band clearance
9 - BIG transmission fluid cooler
10 - HO Pump slide spring and Hardened Pump Rings
11 - TransGo Hardened Sep Plate
12 - Replace all the solenoids on a higher milage rebuild
13 - Get a 4x4 pan at least, holds 1qt more than the 2x4 pan. Or go with a quality cast aluminum aftermarket... B&M, Hughes, etc.
Sonnax Pinless Aluminum Forward Accumulator - Stock can be plastic, this is pinless. Seems to be fine here taking place of GM unit.
GM Aluminum 1-2, 3-4 Acuumulator - Stock is usually plastic, cracks, loses pressure. GM ones are fine here, these work best. The Sonnax ones are for OE accumulator pistons.
Sonnax Servo Release Check Valve - Limits 3-2 downshift tieup/burning. Works very well.
Sonnax Fwd/Rev Abuse Bore Plug - Prevents burning of the clutch packs and band, go into the valve body.
Sonnax TCC Lockup Conversion - Makes TCC Lockup an ON/OFF setup, costly for just yourself but works well. The TransGo kits do a lot for TCC operation themselves so don't think it just remains "blah" with a TG kit.
TransGo Hi-RPM 3-4 Spring Pack - Resist centrifical apply of the 3-4 pack in 1st and 2nd gears at high RPM.
TransGo shift kit - .500 boost valve, 1-2 accum spring, fixes problems like...3-4 burnup, 2-3 overlap, delay bangs, poor 3-2 kickdown, etc. PSK or HD2 kits.
Superior Intermediate Super Servo - greater band holding power, much better 2-3 shifts, excellent 1-2 shifts, 35% more apply than 'Vette servo. Best with bigger stalls.
Superior Overdrive Super Servo - greater holding power in 4th, much better 3-4 shifts, 50% more apply than OE part, comes with billet cover too
TransGo Vac Modulated Shift Setup - This uses a Vac Operated shift modulator that replaces the EPC (pressure solenoid) from a Ford C4 transmission to control shifts. High vac is tamer shifts and low vac is firmer shifts. It's a pretty trick setup and runs about $90 more, but it will keep line pressure constant under high RPM/high loads...which is good. It takes the PCM out of the loop for that.
The biggie with it is you can't have a cam with no vac at idle or you'll have brutal shifts all the time, exactly what ya don't want. So if you go with a VM setup, pick a cam that provides decent idle vac.
Clutches and Band:
2-4 Band - Black Kevlar Lined 2-4 Band OR Kevlar (Std) 2-4 Band OR Alto 2-4 Band (Some Alto and Std Kevlar requires wider input drum) - greater holding capacity, less likely to break off band anchor than OE, anchor on the Altos are 60% greater. Oversized Kevlar and Alto are 3/8 wider that stock band. Most late hardened input drums from TDE are ready for the wider band. The standard band is still wider than pretty much all other transmissions so it's not a necessity. I'd run a Red Alto one...Kevlar likes to burn and you're not going to give up a lot on the shifts with the Alto band.
IMO - No need for an even wider 2-4 band, the 4L60E has the widest band in any automatic. No one I've seen has burned one up in a stock trans, so just go with a performance band in a stock width. Will save money so you don't need a 100% true drum for it to ride on.
3-4 Clutch Pack - This is highly debated. 6 Blue Plates, 8 BW Tans, 13 in the Z Pac, 9 Alto, etc. Whatever you choose, I'd try to stick with the OE thickness steels to resist heat. That usually limits you to 7-8 clutches, so pick your poison there. You can special order full thickness Alto clutches and steels...
Low/Reverse and Forward - You don't need anything exotic here as these are only applied from very slow speeds or in a stopped position. Again, pick what you like.
HARD PARTS:
29 Element Foreward Input Sprag - far better in HO applications
13 Vane Pump Conversion Kit - extra fluid flow at higher RPMs, I've heard from a few sources (good ones) that the '99 and newer trucks have this already. So, I'd wait until you tear it down to see.
Heavy Duty 5 Pinion Front Planetary - 5 pinions vs 4, stronger under load, hardened gears, made of powered metal
Heavy Duty 5 Pinion Rear Planetary - 5 pinions vs 4, stronger under load, hardened gears, made of powered metal
The deal with the 5 pinion planets is sure they're stronger BUT they lose oil flow at higher RPMs. If you plan to swing past 6200rpm on a regular basis the 4 pinion planets are a better bet. The 5's are for lower than 6000 operation, so if you plan that then I'd consider them. If you don't, then go with the 4s (which you already have) and same some money.
Heavy Duty Reaction Carrier Shaft - eliminates need for thrust washers, works in conjunction with the Sun Gear Shell
Heavy Duty Reaction Sun Gear Shell - limits cracking and splitting on bearing area
Increases durability of the internals big time, these two parts are very weak.
Heavy Duty Input Shaft and Drum - After a good amount of research and discussion, these parts have been determined to be not needed. The stock input drum does like to split at the splines as it's aluminum and the shaft steel so there is a kit that will reinforce this for about $40. Also has a bigger clutch piston. No need to have the drum to be able to spin to 9000rpm+... as the motor will never see those RPM anyway.
Heavy Duty Output Shaft - limits broken shafts on high RPM kickdowns. Now this is a good piece. There are hardened stock and billet ones. If you plan to kickdown from 3rd to 1st from about 45mph a lot with a good amount of torque or 3rd to 2nd around 75mph... I'd get this. The 60E can take the upshifts but not the downshifts.
Now, everyone should have a great idea of what needs to be included in their transmission. I also have a big write up on torque converters, that can be posted up if need be. Obviously if you aren't make 500HP, you don't need an insane build like this whereby a few pieces can be deleted. But as I say, Do it right the first time. No sense on doing something halfway then wishing you had done something else. If you are already spending the money, a few $100 more won't break the bank.
Any good rebuild kit should have most of these parts, the specific parts needed will be per kit. KDSperformance.com stocks tons of parts as does Transmission Center, little parts come from Transmissionpartsusa.com. Also Bulkpart.com is back up too. Anything else a trans shop should be able to get.
Once you have that stuff done, then it comes down to the builder. Some like tight clearances for less slop, others like looser for less drag. Really depends. I'd shoot for the medium to tight on them. I haven't built one to have it blow up so I can't say what would work better in what scenario. Tight may be better for HO apps and looser for towing.
Additionally, many hard parts can be cryogenically treated and stress relieved to increase strength and duraibility...sure it costs more but when you are pushing the limits of the 4L60E you need everything done. Once your internals are fully prepped to resist breaking, I begin to see the 3-4 pack burn up...I believe mainly due to insufficient fluid flow and incorrect clearances mostly. I have noticed that you can run even thinner steels and run thinner clutches in the 3-4 and forward gear to be able add more holding power BUT then you induce more heat. I am unsure of any additional holding power with the thinner frictions and steels as if you add too many thin ones you may lose the additional holding power by the abundance of the frictions and steels in the pack. Additional clutches in the 3-4 may require machining to fit also.
Finally super hard shifts are bad even on the best internals. Just go with a fully installed TransGo, NO washers in the 1-2 accumulator, and servos dependant on your converter for an excellent shifting as well as not overly hard trans. Keep feed holes smaller to resist "banging" or too firm of shifts also.
Good **** IMO