Coban

iTrader: (14)

Yea there was an extensive thread on the acetone a while back. I did it and got over 21 mpg on the highway. Nobody gave me much credit though or believed it. Thats what it seemed like at least.

GREGGO

iTrader: (2)

Laws were ment to be broken .

Yaaaallllll are sum smart fellers!!!

02sierraz71_5.3

iTrader: (2)

Im a little dense if someone would explain to me how the law of thermo dynamics precludes any of this working

ttthhhaaannnkks oh and Im gonna need those tps reports on my desk by monday

02sierraz71_5.3

iTrader: (2)

the link tells you how much to add for maximum mileage evidently too much and it causes mileage to go down

GREGGO

iTrader: (2)

Can I just have my stapler?

GoldenVelvet

Thermodynamics dictate the specifics for the movement of heat and work. Basically, the First Law of Thermodynamics is a statement of the conservation of energy - the Second Law is a statement about the direction of that conservation - and the Third Law is a statement about reaching Absolute Zero.

However, since their conception, these laws have become some of the most important laws of all science and are often associated with concepts far beyond what is directly stated in the wording. To give you a better understanding on how these laws came about and their modern scope of coverage, you have to understand when and why these laws were generated.

Our story begins back in the mid-seventeenth century. Society prior to the eighteenth century favored developments in the life sciences (largely for medical research) and astronomy (for navigation and a record of the passage of time also a source for early mythology and folklore). Science was viewed as purely a philosophic endeavor, where little research was conducted beyond the most useful fields. Indeed, philosophy and science were inseparable in several emerging disciplines (this is always true of new fields where no firm basis of study has yet been conducted).

If necessity were the mother of all innovation, then the Industrial Revolution would be the mother of all necessities. Horrible living conditions in the overcrowded industrial cities bred a plethora of diseases and viruses. This along with other results of spontaneous urbanization demanded science again to address the problems of an ever-changing human civilization.

Science of the Industrial Age responded to such needs by centering on medical advances in the early stages of the revolution. Such was the era of crucial medical breakthroughs, and age of greatest physiologists - such as Marie Curie (radium), Wilhelm Roentgen (x-rays), Louis Pasteur (pasteurization), Edward Jenner (smallpox vaccination), Joseph Lister (bacteria antiseptic), and Charles Darwin (evolution).

Once the medical crisis was rectified, science could concentrate on the heart of an industrial society large-scaled machinery. True of nineteenth century mass industry, the company with the greatest machines produced more products, made more money, and was consequently more successful. It is natural, therefore, that fierce competition arose to find the most industrious machinery possible, and how far the limits of these machines could be pushed as to achieve maximum productivity (without consuming much energy).

Society would fuel scientific advancement. Nineteenth century scientists were encouraged to study the machine, and its efficiency. To do this, physicists analyzed the flow of heat in these machines, and the chemical changes that transpire when they perform work. Thus was the establishment of modern thermodynamics. First on the agenda of this new discipline was to find a means convert heat (as produced by machines) into work with full efficiency. If such a flawless conversion could be accomplished, a machine could run off its own heat, producing a never-ending cycle of heat to work, rendering heat, converting to work, and so forth ad infinitum…

The idea of such a machine that could run continuously off its own exhaust, or 'perpetual-motion' machine as it was dubbed, excited the industrial corporations, who contributed much funding for its development. However, as the research was completed, the results were all but pleasing to the sponsors. As it turned out, the very same research oriented to create a perpetual-motion machine proved that the very concept is not possible. The proof lies in two theories that are currently considered the most important laws in the whole body of science - the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics.

The First Law is really a prelude to the second. It states that the total energy output (as that produced by a machine) is equal to the amount of heat supplied. Generally, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so the sum of mass and energy is always conserved. A mathematical approach to this law produced the equation U = Q - W (the change in the internal energy of a closed system equals the heat added to the system minus the work done by the system). By its nature, this finding did not restrict the use of perpetual-motion machines. However, the next law would deal a blow to all believers of such a wonder machine.

The first law, a bellwether in the frontier pastures of Thermodynamics, contained one major flaw that rendered it inaccurate as it stood. This law is based on a conceptual reality, one that does not take into consideration limits placed by transactions occurring in the real world. In other words, the first law failed to recognize that not all circumstances that conserve energy actually ensue naturally. As the impracticality of the first law (to describe all natural phenomenon) became apparent, a revision became essential if science hoped fully to understand thermal interactions, and thus keep pace with a machine-driven society.

Born as a modification to its older sibling, the Second Law of Thermodynamics made no early promises of importance. Further research into the natural tendencies of thermal movement in the latter nineteenth century developed a code of restrictions as to how heat conversion is achieved in the natural world. Physicists attempting to transform heat into work with full efficacy quickly learned that always some heat would escape into the surrounding environment, eternally doomed to be wasted energy (recall that energy can not be destroyed). Being obsolete, this energy can never be converted into anything useful again.

One physicist noted for significant experiments in this field is the Frenchman, Sadi Carnot. His ideal engine, so properly titled the 'Carnot Engine,' would theoretically have a work output equal to that of its heat input (thus not losing any energy in the process). However, he fell into a similar trap as in the first law, and failed to conduct his experiments as would naturally occur. Realizing his error, he concluded (after further experimentation) that no device could completely make the desired conversion, without losing at least some energy to the environment.

Carnot created an equation he employed to prove this statement, and currently used to show the thermodynamic efficiency of a heat machine: e = 1 - TL / TH (the efficiency of a heat machine is equal to one minus the low operating temperature of the machine in degrees Kelvin, divided by the high operating temperate of the machine in degrees Kelvin). For a machine to attain full efficiency, temperatures of absolute zero would have to be incorporated. Reaching absolute zero is later proved impossible by the Third Law of Thermodynamics.

These findings frustrated the believers of a perpetual motion machine, and angered the industrial tycoons who sponsored the whole endeavor. Yet, not all was completely lost. Carnot's equation helped industrial engineers design engines that could operate up to an 80% efficiency level - an enormous improvement over prior designs, increasing productivity exponentially. Moreover, by reversing the heat-to-work process, the invention of the refrigerator was made possible! Yet, the greatest overall fruit of this venture was the development of the Second Thermodynamic Law, which would later achieve a legendary status as a fundamental law of natural science.

Let us shortly return to Carnot and the heat engine. The irrevocable loss of some energy to the environment was associated with an increase of disorder in that system. Scientists wishing to further penetrate the realm of chaos needed a variable that could be used to calculate disorder. Thanks to mid-nineteenth century physicist, R.J.E. Clausius, this Pandemonium could be measured in terms of a quantity named entropy (the variable S). Entropy acts as a function of the state of a system - where a high amount of entropy translates to higher chaos within the system, and low entropy signals a highly ordered state.

Like Carnot, Clausius worked out a general equation, his being devoted to the measurement of entropy change over a period of time: (change)S = Q / T (the change in entropy is equal to the amount of heat added to the system [by an invertible process] divided by the temperature in degrees K). The beauty of this equation is that it can be used to compute the entropic change of any exchange in nature, not solely limited to machines. This development brought thermodynamics out of the industrial workplace, and opened the possibility for further studies into the tendencies of natural order (and lack therefore of), eventually extending to the universe as a whole.

Applying this knowledge to nature, physicists found that the total entropy change (change in S) always increases for every naturally occurring event (within a closed system) that could be then observed. Thus, they theorized, disorder must be continually augmenting evenly throughout the universe. When you put ice into a hot cup of tea, heat will flow from the hot tea to the cold ice and melt the ice in the beverage. Then, once the energy in the cup is evenly distributed, the cooled tea would reach a maximum state of entropy. This situation represents a standard increase in disorder, believed to be perpetually occurring throughout the entire universe.







Or

1. You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved).


2. You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).


3. You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable).

JSmith

iTrader: (5)

I'm going outside to ride my bike...

02sierraz71_5.3

iTrader: (2)

the machine doestn run off its own exhaust not sure what gave you that Idea it converts water to hho and runs off that. This is nothing like any sort of perpetual motion or running off exhaust type thing has nothing at all to do with it.

oh and when you cut and paste you should give credit and the website

desTRUCKtive

You dont want to start bringing the thermo laws into this. This problem could be explained without this. I know that it does involve the laws of thermo but why make it so complicated. I just farted... the reason being is because i had some type of gas in my stomach. If you wanted to bring the laws of thermodynamics into this problem we can, but we just opened a can of worms that even the modern student has a hard time to understand. I could say that it invloved some type of boul movement that has caused the randomness of the system to increase to the disorder state. When something increases to the disordered state it will (with some type of reaction) and want to always go to the the most relaxed and stable state. and blah blah blah.

I think the most important thing to remember is what you said and what you said correctly. There is a much energy in the O-H bond of water, but the down side is that there is much energy needed to break all the bonds at THE SAME TIME because of the dipole force that the oxygen has on the hydrogen . And bringing those two bonds together creates energy.

02sierraz71_5.3

iTrader: (2)

here is some info from a blog spot so it can BS or real
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/200...nkleinhho.html

"The first remarkable feature is the efficiency E of the electrolyzer for the production of the gas, here simply defined as the ratio between the volume of HHO gas produced and the number of Watts needed for its production. In fact, the electrolyzer rapidly converts water into 55 standard cubic feet (scf) of HHO gas at 35 pounds per square inch (psi) via the use of 5 Kwh, resulting in the remarkable efficiency of 55/5,000 = 0.001 scf/W (sic), namely, an efficiency that is at least of the order of ten times the corresponding efficiency of conventional water evaporation, thus permitting low production costs."

This deals with seperating h20 to hho notice how it doesnt take alot of energy to do it and the mass that is accomplished

"A second important feature is that the HHO gas does not require oxygen for combustion since the gas contains in its interior all oxygen needed for that scope, as it is also the case for the Brown gas. By recalling that other fuels (including hydrogen) require atmospheric oxygen for their combustion, thus causing a serious environmental problem known as oxygen depletion, the capability to combust without any oxygen depletion (jointly with its low production cost) render the gas particularly important on environmental grounds."

destructive: after some research I do not believe they are breaking bonds but rearranging them hence we still have 2 hydrogens and one oxygen but it is not water and a gas(not gasoline). HHo is a magnecule
"the basic notion underlying magnecules is a property well known in atomic physics according to which when an atom is exposed to a sufficently strong external magnetic field the orbits of its peripheral electrons cannot be freely distributed.....blahblahblah.....with consequential reaction of a new magnetic dipole (which you were mentioning)"
http://www.i-b-r.org/docs/magneh.pdf
this is why it doesnt take alot of energy to create hho form h20. I think this stuff could work its interesting to think of an internal combustion engine that doesnt have an air intake no more worrying about afr, thats cool I can now drive underwater.