New Jersey....what a shame
07-20-2009, 02:46 PM
#11
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edwards AFB CA
Posts: 1,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TRENTON - New Jersey's one-handgun-per-month proposal was designed to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
But if the bill takes effect later this year or in early 2010, it could have the unintended consequence of severely cutting down on the supply of legal handguns to licensed retailers, potentially driving them out of business, according to a prominent Second Amendment attorney.
Evan F. Nappen, an Eatontown, Monmouth County, attorney who has written two books on New Jersey's weapons laws, said the problem comes from the bill - which seeks to curb illegal distribution of guns from permitted owners - not exempting sales from distributors or private parties to gun stores.
Instead, it exempts only law enforcement, antique collectors and transactions between retailers from the restrictions to one handgun purchase per month.
According to Nappen, the restrictions would choke off sales by individuals as well as manufacturers and distributors to retailers, sales that stores use to keep stock replenished.
"To me, it's either an oversight or, if you're more conspiratorial, it's intentional," Nappen said. "It's either one or the other, but it's a problem."
Gun retailer Tom Gormley said he was upset at the prospect of the supply of guns to legitimate dealers being choked off.
"I don't understand it," said Gormley, president of Tip's Hardware in Eagleswood Township, Ocean County. "All the stats that everybody has shows that these guns that they're worried about, the stats already show that they're being bought out of state."
The non-partisan state Office of Legislative Service, which helped draft the bill, declined to comment on the record.
Jason Butkowski, the state Senate Democrats' deputy communications director for technology, said OLS told him the bill covered only retail gun dealers and their employers, not wholesalers and private collectors wishing to sell to stores. Regardless, he said if it were a problem, he expected a task force created by Gov. Jon S. Corzine would find a solution.
Under current law, a person interested in buying a handgun must file for a firearms ID card and a pistol permit with his or her local police department. The applicant is fingerprinted for the card, and police have a month to approve or deny the permit.
However, Nappen and store owners say they have heard of some departments wrongfully taking months to process a permit.
Gun enthusiasts said the one-handgun-a-month bill is a bad idea because it would tighten up the already stringent state gun regulations while doing nothing to reduce guns that come from other states.
At the same time, gun-control advocates praised the bill, which would make New Jersey one of just four states with this restriction.
Corzine had pushed for it and the Assembly approved the legislation in June 2008, but it faced opposition from Republicans and southern Democrats. It cleared the state Senate only last month, when state Sen. Fred Madden Jr., D-Gloucester, Camden, agreed to support it after Corzine promised to put him on a task force to review the bill.
The administration staffed the task force last week with Madden and other lawmakers from across the state, along with the attorney general, State Police and county prosecutors and other experts with differing perspectives on gun control. It must meet by July 27 and is required to issue a preliminary report by late October and a final report by April 2011.
Both houses of the Legislature are not expected to meet until after the November elections, meaning lawmakers would likely work on the bill in the lame-duck period at the end of the term.
Madden said he had not heard of the problem Nappen pointed out but would consider it. He said his first concerns were competitive shooters and gun collectors, but he also wanted the state to use modern databases to track permits more efficiently and reduce the redundancy that requires a pistol-permit application for every purchase.
Similarly, bill sponsors said potential problems with retailers had not been discussed. State Sen. Jim Whelan, D-Atlantic, co-sponsored the bill and was the only one of 12 legislators in The Press's four-district coverage area that voted for it. He hadn't heard of Nappen's concern and said he supported the bill because 12 handguns per year seemed like a reasonable limit.
New Jersey Association of Firearms Retailers President Bob Viden said he expected potential problems for the state's retailers would be addressed, but echoed Madden's concern for collectors.
Viden, who runs Bob's Little Sport Shop in Glassboro, Gloucester County, said, "Why should they wait four months?" he said. "These aren't the people causing crimes."
E-mail Derek Harper:
DHarper@pressofac.com
But if the bill takes effect later this year or in early 2010, it could have the unintended consequence of severely cutting down on the supply of legal handguns to licensed retailers, potentially driving them out of business, according to a prominent Second Amendment attorney.
Evan F. Nappen, an Eatontown, Monmouth County, attorney who has written two books on New Jersey's weapons laws, said the problem comes from the bill - which seeks to curb illegal distribution of guns from permitted owners - not exempting sales from distributors or private parties to gun stores.
Instead, it exempts only law enforcement, antique collectors and transactions between retailers from the restrictions to one handgun purchase per month.
According to Nappen, the restrictions would choke off sales by individuals as well as manufacturers and distributors to retailers, sales that stores use to keep stock replenished.
"To me, it's either an oversight or, if you're more conspiratorial, it's intentional," Nappen said. "It's either one or the other, but it's a problem."
Gun retailer Tom Gormley said he was upset at the prospect of the supply of guns to legitimate dealers being choked off.
"I don't understand it," said Gormley, president of Tip's Hardware in Eagleswood Township, Ocean County. "All the stats that everybody has shows that these guns that they're worried about, the stats already show that they're being bought out of state."
The non-partisan state Office of Legislative Service, which helped draft the bill, declined to comment on the record.
Jason Butkowski, the state Senate Democrats' deputy communications director for technology, said OLS told him the bill covered only retail gun dealers and their employers, not wholesalers and private collectors wishing to sell to stores. Regardless, he said if it were a problem, he expected a task force created by Gov. Jon S. Corzine would find a solution.
Under current law, a person interested in buying a handgun must file for a firearms ID card and a pistol permit with his or her local police department. The applicant is fingerprinted for the card, and police have a month to approve or deny the permit.
However, Nappen and store owners say they have heard of some departments wrongfully taking months to process a permit.
Gun enthusiasts said the one-handgun-a-month bill is a bad idea because it would tighten up the already stringent state gun regulations while doing nothing to reduce guns that come from other states.
At the same time, gun-control advocates praised the bill, which would make New Jersey one of just four states with this restriction.
Corzine had pushed for it and the Assembly approved the legislation in June 2008, but it faced opposition from Republicans and southern Democrats. It cleared the state Senate only last month, when state Sen. Fred Madden Jr., D-Gloucester, Camden, agreed to support it after Corzine promised to put him on a task force to review the bill.
The administration staffed the task force last week with Madden and other lawmakers from across the state, along with the attorney general, State Police and county prosecutors and other experts with differing perspectives on gun control. It must meet by July 27 and is required to issue a preliminary report by late October and a final report by April 2011.
Both houses of the Legislature are not expected to meet until after the November elections, meaning lawmakers would likely work on the bill in the lame-duck period at the end of the term.
Madden said he had not heard of the problem Nappen pointed out but would consider it. He said his first concerns were competitive shooters and gun collectors, but he also wanted the state to use modern databases to track permits more efficiently and reduce the redundancy that requires a pistol-permit application for every purchase.
Similarly, bill sponsors said potential problems with retailers had not been discussed. State Sen. Jim Whelan, D-Atlantic, co-sponsored the bill and was the only one of 12 legislators in The Press's four-district coverage area that voted for it. He hadn't heard of Nappen's concern and said he supported the bill because 12 handguns per year seemed like a reasonable limit.
New Jersey Association of Firearms Retailers President Bob Viden said he expected potential problems for the state's retailers would be addressed, but echoed Madden's concern for collectors.
Viden, who runs Bob's Little Sport Shop in Glassboro, Gloucester County, said, "Why should they wait four months?" he said. "These aren't the people causing crimes."
E-mail Derek Harper:
DHarper@pressofac.com
07-20-2009, 02:47 PM
#13
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edwards AFB CA
Posts: 1,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
more from that same link:
IF YOU WANT A HANDGUN,
YOU BETTER BUY IT NOW!
By Evan Nappen, Esq.
June 30, 2009
"Retail Dealers will only be able to obtain one handgun a month from any source except another Retail Dealer (who is not likely to sell any of their dwindling inventory to another dealer.) As dealer inventories sell out, they will not be able to replace it except at the worthless pace of one gun a month. In a short time, there will be no handguns left for dealers to sell."
Handgun sales and purchases by New Jersey Retail Dealers are going to virtually end after November 2009. This is because the New Jersey legislature hurriedly passed the so-called “One Gun a Month” bill (A339), which was known to be seriously flawed. The defective bill is absurd, as it address a non-existent problem. No self-respecting gun trafficker would obtain their handguns by first applying for New Jersey Handguns Permits, paying over $50 in fees, and insuring that any handgun he sells on the street was papered to him! Notwithstanding just how idiotic the law is, it awaits the Governor Corzine’s signature and there is no reason to believe he will veto it.
However, even the Governor felt it was necessary to issue an Executive Order creating a “Task Force” to examine the law's impact on collectors and sportsmen. No mention was made by the Governor of examining its effect on honest citizens who want to buy a particular handgun for self-protection. Also not mentioned for study is the impact on Retail Dealers, the US Armed Forces, the National Guard, recognized military organizations, nuclear power plant security, public utilities, institutional guards, widows, banks, security agencies and private detective agencies. Is the “Task Force” just window dressing or will this poorly drafted legislation actually be “fixed”? If the law is not changed it will:
- Kill Retail Dealer business by cutting them off from their primary suppliers of new and used handguns (wholesalers, manufacturers, distributors and individual private sellers), all of whom are NOT exempted from the legislation. Dealer inventories will eventually drop to nothing.
- Virtually End the ability for a New Jersey resident to special order a new handgun from a Retail Dealer by cutting off Retail Dealers from purchasing more than one handgun, except from another Retail Dealer. (Unless you are the lucky “one” chosen by your Retail Dealer for that month’s one gun quota, you are S.O.L.)
- Potentially Cripples Handgun Procurement by the US Armed Forces, the National Guard, recognized military organizations, nuclear power plant security, public utilities, institutional guards, banks, security agencies and private detective agencies, who are NOT covered by the bill’s “law enforcement” exemption.
VIRTUALLY ENDS RETAIL HANDGUN SALES IN NJ
A339 states:
i. Restriction on number of firearms person may purchase. Only one handgun shall be purchased or delivered on each permit and no more than one handgun shall be purchasedwithin any 30-day period, but this limitation shall not apply to:… (3) transfers of handguns between licensed retail dealers. (Emphasis added)
Special orders for particular models of handguns will be a thing of the past. Eventually, Retail Dealers will be lucky to have any inventory for sale at all. Retail Dealers will only be able to obtain one handgun a month from any source except another Retail Dealer (who is not likely to sell any of their dwindling inventory to another dealer.) As dealer inventories sell out, they will not be able to replace it except at the worthless pace of one gun a month. In a short time, there will be no handguns left for dealers to sell.
Citizens will no longer be able to sell their handguns to New Jersey Retail Dealers, unless they have the one handgun the Retail Dealer wants to buy that month. God forbid they have more than one handgun to sell! For example, a widow selling the all the deceased’s handguns in the estate to a Retail Dealer will be a thing of the past.
The Retail Dealers will be stopped cold. Forget about selling your guns to a Retail Dealer, having the Retail Dealer enter the handguns on his/her bound record books and conducting an instant background check on their future sale. As Retail Dealers turn away private sellers in droves, there will be a boom in private sales, grey market sales and black market sales as demand and prices skyrocket!
KILLS THE RETAIL DEALER BUSINESS
The law contains language exempting “transfers of handguns between licensed retail dealers.” The term “retail dealer” is defined by current law in 2C:39-1L, and essentially refers to persons engaged in the sale or repair of firearms for profit to ultimate consumers. The definition explicitly excludes “wholesale dealers,” which are defined elsewhere in 2C:39-1S (which essentially refers to persons who sell firearms to those who are not the ultimate consumers).
Because the law only exempts transfers between licensed retail dealers, the one gun per 30 days restriction still applies to transfers from all others, including wholesale dealers, manufacturers, distributors and individual sellers. Most firearms sold by Retail Dealers are obtained from wholesale dealers, distributors and manufacturers. Many Retail Dealers also buy used firearms from individuals and resell them. It is rare for a retail dealer to buy from other Retail Dealers, which is the only exempted class of transfer.
As a result, retail dealers would be cut off from their primary suppliers (wholesalers, manufacturers, distributors and individuals) and can only purchase one handgun every 30 days from these suppliers. New Jersey’s several hundred licensed retail dealers are destroyed by this law.
CRIPPLES HANDGUN PROCUREMENT BY
MILITARY AND SECURITY ORGANIZATIONS:
In two places, the law contains language exempting “a federal, State or local law enforcement officer or agency purchasing handguns for use by officers in the actual performance of their law enforcement duties.” However, the proposed exemption for “federal law enforcement” (e.g., FBI, ATF, Secret Service, US Marshalls, etc.) falls short of covering military and security organizations, which are always identified and treated separately and distinctly from law enforcement under existing exemptions from New Jersey gun law. Recognized categories of military and security organizations that are ignored by the law include: Members of the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, National Guard, and recognized military organizations (2C:39-6a(1), 2C:39-6a(6), and 2C:39-6c(6)); nuclear power plant security (2C:39-6a(10)); public utilities (2C:39-6c(8)); institutional guards (2C:39-6b(5)); security agencies and private detective agencies (which supply employees with firearms for their guard duties under New Jersey's private detective law).
Because these categories were not explicitly exempted under the new law as they are elsewhere in the old law, they are not exempt and the legislation interferes with necessary procurement of handguns by these organizations.
CONCLUSION
It is a disgrace for the legislature to quickly pass such a absurd bill and then have the Governor support the law, while simultaneously issuing an Executive Order creating a “task force” to examine the law's impact. The proper way to handle such a situation is called “VETO.” We are now dependant on post enactment amendments to stop this travesty. Anywhere other than New Jersey this bill would never have made it out of committee, no less be signed into law. Let’s hope we see some real “change” before the problems created by this flawed legal scheme causes irreparable harm.
IF YOU WANT A HANDGUN,
YOU BETTER BUY IT NOW!
By Evan Nappen, Esq.
June 30, 2009
"Retail Dealers will only be able to obtain one handgun a month from any source except another Retail Dealer (who is not likely to sell any of their dwindling inventory to another dealer.) As dealer inventories sell out, they will not be able to replace it except at the worthless pace of one gun a month. In a short time, there will be no handguns left for dealers to sell."
Handgun sales and purchases by New Jersey Retail Dealers are going to virtually end after November 2009. This is because the New Jersey legislature hurriedly passed the so-called “One Gun a Month” bill (A339), which was known to be seriously flawed. The defective bill is absurd, as it address a non-existent problem. No self-respecting gun trafficker would obtain their handguns by first applying for New Jersey Handguns Permits, paying over $50 in fees, and insuring that any handgun he sells on the street was papered to him! Notwithstanding just how idiotic the law is, it awaits the Governor Corzine’s signature and there is no reason to believe he will veto it.
However, even the Governor felt it was necessary to issue an Executive Order creating a “Task Force” to examine the law's impact on collectors and sportsmen. No mention was made by the Governor of examining its effect on honest citizens who want to buy a particular handgun for self-protection. Also not mentioned for study is the impact on Retail Dealers, the US Armed Forces, the National Guard, recognized military organizations, nuclear power plant security, public utilities, institutional guards, widows, banks, security agencies and private detective agencies. Is the “Task Force” just window dressing or will this poorly drafted legislation actually be “fixed”? If the law is not changed it will:
- Kill Retail Dealer business by cutting them off from their primary suppliers of new and used handguns (wholesalers, manufacturers, distributors and individual private sellers), all of whom are NOT exempted from the legislation. Dealer inventories will eventually drop to nothing.
- Virtually End the ability for a New Jersey resident to special order a new handgun from a Retail Dealer by cutting off Retail Dealers from purchasing more than one handgun, except from another Retail Dealer. (Unless you are the lucky “one” chosen by your Retail Dealer for that month’s one gun quota, you are S.O.L.)
- Potentially Cripples Handgun Procurement by the US Armed Forces, the National Guard, recognized military organizations, nuclear power plant security, public utilities, institutional guards, banks, security agencies and private detective agencies, who are NOT covered by the bill’s “law enforcement” exemption.
VIRTUALLY ENDS RETAIL HANDGUN SALES IN NJ
A339 states:
i. Restriction on number of firearms person may purchase. Only one handgun shall be purchased or delivered on each permit and no more than one handgun shall be purchasedwithin any 30-day period, but this limitation shall not apply to:… (3) transfers of handguns between licensed retail dealers. (Emphasis added)
Special orders for particular models of handguns will be a thing of the past. Eventually, Retail Dealers will be lucky to have any inventory for sale at all. Retail Dealers will only be able to obtain one handgun a month from any source except another Retail Dealer (who is not likely to sell any of their dwindling inventory to another dealer.) As dealer inventories sell out, they will not be able to replace it except at the worthless pace of one gun a month. In a short time, there will be no handguns left for dealers to sell.
Citizens will no longer be able to sell their handguns to New Jersey Retail Dealers, unless they have the one handgun the Retail Dealer wants to buy that month. God forbid they have more than one handgun to sell! For example, a widow selling the all the deceased’s handguns in the estate to a Retail Dealer will be a thing of the past.
The Retail Dealers will be stopped cold. Forget about selling your guns to a Retail Dealer, having the Retail Dealer enter the handguns on his/her bound record books and conducting an instant background check on their future sale. As Retail Dealers turn away private sellers in droves, there will be a boom in private sales, grey market sales and black market sales as demand and prices skyrocket!
KILLS THE RETAIL DEALER BUSINESS
The law contains language exempting “transfers of handguns between licensed retail dealers.” The term “retail dealer” is defined by current law in 2C:39-1L, and essentially refers to persons engaged in the sale or repair of firearms for profit to ultimate consumers. The definition explicitly excludes “wholesale dealers,” which are defined elsewhere in 2C:39-1S (which essentially refers to persons who sell firearms to those who are not the ultimate consumers).
Because the law only exempts transfers between licensed retail dealers, the one gun per 30 days restriction still applies to transfers from all others, including wholesale dealers, manufacturers, distributors and individual sellers. Most firearms sold by Retail Dealers are obtained from wholesale dealers, distributors and manufacturers. Many Retail Dealers also buy used firearms from individuals and resell them. It is rare for a retail dealer to buy from other Retail Dealers, which is the only exempted class of transfer.
As a result, retail dealers would be cut off from their primary suppliers (wholesalers, manufacturers, distributors and individuals) and can only purchase one handgun every 30 days from these suppliers. New Jersey’s several hundred licensed retail dealers are destroyed by this law.
CRIPPLES HANDGUN PROCUREMENT BY
MILITARY AND SECURITY ORGANIZATIONS:
In two places, the law contains language exempting “a federal, State or local law enforcement officer or agency purchasing handguns for use by officers in the actual performance of their law enforcement duties.” However, the proposed exemption for “federal law enforcement” (e.g., FBI, ATF, Secret Service, US Marshalls, etc.) falls short of covering military and security organizations, which are always identified and treated separately and distinctly from law enforcement under existing exemptions from New Jersey gun law. Recognized categories of military and security organizations that are ignored by the law include: Members of the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, National Guard, and recognized military organizations (2C:39-6a(1), 2C:39-6a(6), and 2C:39-6c(6)); nuclear power plant security (2C:39-6a(10)); public utilities (2C:39-6c(8)); institutional guards (2C:39-6b(5)); security agencies and private detective agencies (which supply employees with firearms for their guard duties under New Jersey's private detective law).
Because these categories were not explicitly exempted under the new law as they are elsewhere in the old law, they are not exempt and the legislation interferes with necessary procurement of handguns by these organizations.
CONCLUSION
It is a disgrace for the legislature to quickly pass such a absurd bill and then have the Governor support the law, while simultaneously issuing an Executive Order creating a “task force” to examine the law's impact. The proper way to handle such a situation is called “VETO.” We are now dependant on post enactment amendments to stop this travesty. Anywhere other than New Jersey this bill would never have made it out of committee, no less be signed into law. Let’s hope we see some real “change” before the problems created by this flawed legal scheme causes irreparable harm.
07-20-2009, 04:14 PM
#14
Tom (fastnblu) told me about this this past weekend, it's total BS. (I live in Jersey btw). As mentioned, all it does is hurt the honest person, the criminals will always find a way to get guns. The criminals aren't going into gun stores and getting their guns, they're getting them illegally of course. Not to mention the hit it will take on the economy...I thought the idea was to help businesses to generate income, not force them to close their doors 
07-20-2009, 05:38 PM
#15
New Jersey, the new California on steroids. Wow, amazing. Is there any evidence anywhere that shows limiting sales to law abiding citizens lowers crimes involving firearms?
Seriously, too many people are apathetic to the situation. Next it will be gas powered vehicles...or tires.
Seriously, too many people are apathetic to the situation. Next it will be gas powered vehicles...or tires.
07-21-2009, 12:27 PM
#18
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edwards AFB CA
Posts: 1,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Amendment II
I fail to see the gray area. What do they not understand. By limiting your ability to purchase a gun, they are infringing on your rights.
I fail to see the gray area. What do they not understand. By limiting your ability to purchase a gun, they are infringing on your rights.
07-21-2009, 12:49 PM
#19
TECH Fanatic
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: houston, tx
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
some of these gun laws probably could have saved a family or two in the past couple of years with all the suicides, killing of family members and so on. you guys are stuck on the whole "criminals having guns" its all of us.. regular family with dog and all looses his job and goes home and kills everyone, or better yet an average joe goes on a killing spree because of lost job, money troubles... or son kills dad because he got grounded. what can we do about the non criminal selfish american's that decides to off his family and kids? i have a couple of guns myself.. i am just asking... would this law help a kid live from their father going nuts one day? i am for having guns to protect.. but what can we do about the pyschos? what if that law saved a kid or a whole family one day?
07-21-2009, 01:44 PM
#20
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edwards AFB CA
Posts: 1,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But in all those cases a gun didnt kill anybody. A person used a tool to kill people. The person is the killer not the tool. What if that kid used a knife to stab the guy to death. Or the dad tied everyone up and burned down the house? What should we do then? Ban knives and rope and gas? There is no perfect answer. But I know if everyone around me was armed I would think long and hard about car jacking somebody, or robbing a gas station. I know first hand that me lawfully carring my .45 has stopped a robbery just by having it open carried.