Run your 4L80E swap on a 4L60e tune with no segment swap
#81
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I have several questions pertaining to all this. There seem to be several methods and maybe I'm just tired and a bit confused. Some methods I thought I had seen do not use a relay, and if that is the case, how is that attained?
Background info is, I am doing the swap on a '01 Silvy and will be running a stall, though one that will retain towing capability so probably 2600ish or so would be my guess. Putting it all behind a L33 based 383 and trying to do as much myself minus the tuning aspect that I can.
So my question is which method is best for me taking into consideration that:
1)I will be running a stall though probably small so I can still tow
2)I don't want the converter to unlock at 0% throttle
3)I don't really want to spend $200 on a harness but will if it's the cleanest/best method
4)I don't want a delay in shifting (does using the relay method actually cause this?)
I'm no wiring genius but I can usually figure just about anything out given time Any help would be greatly appreciated in my quest to infinitely **** off my wife even more, oh and that never ending search for more powa!!!
Background info is, I am doing the swap on a '01 Silvy and will be running a stall, though one that will retain towing capability so probably 2600ish or so would be my guess. Putting it all behind a L33 based 383 and trying to do as much myself minus the tuning aspect that I can.
So my question is which method is best for me taking into consideration that:
1)I will be running a stall though probably small so I can still tow
2)I don't want the converter to unlock at 0% throttle
3)I don't really want to spend $200 on a harness but will if it's the cleanest/best method
4)I don't want a delay in shifting (does using the relay method actually cause this?)
I'm no wiring genius but I can usually figure just about anything out given time Any help would be greatly appreciated in my quest to infinitely **** off my wife even more, oh and that never ending search for more powa!!!
I haven't noticed any delay whatsoever, a relay should only take around .020 seconds to engage.
#82
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Yes, unlocks when I'm out of the throttle now on stock 60e/converter. Reason I asked about the relay is I read a post on another forum and, IIRC, he said that the relay caused a slight delay. I'm just trying to do a nice looking conversion as easily as possible. Doesn't really matter which way I go about it I guess as long as I get the results and can get rid of that damn TCC unlocking all the time.
#83
Yes, unlocks when I'm out of the throttle now on stock 60e/converter. Reason I asked about the relay is I read a post on another forum and, IIRC, he said that the relay caused a slight delay. I'm just trying to do a nice looking conversion as easily as possible. Doesn't really matter which way I go about it I guess as long as I get the results and can get rid of that damn TCC unlocking all the time.
Adding the relay will not change the way it locks up. The 60e and 80e electronics are very similar, the only difference is the action of the shift b solenoid which is the opposite. So that is why a relay is added to convert the signal. You need to look at the tune.
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hmm stock 60e shouldn't unlock until you get down to a certain speed or give a certain % throttle. Is the truck stock or tuned? There are lock up settings that you can adjust.
Adding the relay will not change the way it locks up. The 60e and 80e electronics are very similar, the only difference is the action of the shift b solenoid which is the opposite. So that is why a relay is added to convert the signal. You need to look at the tune.
Adding the relay will not change the way it locks up. The 60e and 80e electronics are very similar, the only difference is the action of the shift b solenoid which is the opposite. So that is why a relay is added to convert the signal. You need to look at the tune.
Disregarding what my current setup is, if I want to be able to keep the converter locked at 0% throttle when I go 80e, I MUST run the 60e tune. The only way to do so is to swap pins/add relay, etc....correct?
#87
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Yup, that's what mine does. I looked into it and the only thing changed in mine was the torque management was disabled. Dunno, but it sure does act weird. When I first got it, I thought something was wrong with my cluster because unless I go 90-100% throttle (best guess), the rpms barely rise in the tach in relation to speed. I've had built 700r4's and 400turbos and none acted like this one so I'm not sure if it's on it's last leg or what. I'm just going to get the 80e swap over with and call it done.
#88
I have a gauge for that
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Got my problem figured out, and since it deals directly with the relay method I'll throw it in here.
I read something on the hptuners forum about the speedo being off causing this type of error, so I double checked my vss pulses and corrected it and the speedo is dead-nuts on for what it should be with the tire height and gear ratios. However, there is still a ~150rpm slip when its "locked", but the math isnt showing that... Remembering I am still using the 60e tune, I checked the numbers with the 60es deeper OD and sure enough, that would make the "TCC Slip" equal to about 0. What this implies is the PCM has knowledge of the gear ratios in the transmissions and doesnt just use the speed sensors to calculate it.
Case in point;
I logged engine rpm, input shaft rpm, output shaft rpm, and tcc slip in a steady state highway situation. For this particular case these were the values:
Engine - 2212
Input - 2052
Output - 2953
So "TCC Slip" is defined as the difference between the engine rpm and input shaft rpm, so in this case it is measured as 2212-2052=160, which is exactly what HPT showed. But lets keep in mind where these numbers come from. The physical sensors are on the engine (crank sensor) and output shaft (vss sensor), so where does that input rpm number come from? Took me a while to figure out that it is a calculated value...based on the transmission ratios, and as far as the PCM knows im still using a 60e, not an 80e. So lets repeat the exercise for TCC Slip accounting for the correct ratios and knowledge that the physical sensors are accurate (engine and output).
[2212-(2953*.75)] = 0 That is to say the engine speed minus the trans output speed times the OD ratio I actually have gives me the true input rpm and now produces a TCC Slip value of 0 rpm. Excellent.
I am relieved to finally have an answer I am happy with, but disappointed there isnt a way to fix the problem without doing a segment swap as there is not access to the gears the PCM assumes you have. I dont want to do the segment swap because the torque converter unlocking at 0% throttle is extremely annoying. Secondly, if I am in a condition where the clutch is engaged, its at high speeds, so if I let off the gas I want the additional engine braking.
If you are particularly interested in seeing the TCC Slip value making a custom PID to get the *true* TCC slip is not hard, it would simply be:
[engine rpm] -[trans_output_shaft_rpm*actual_trans_ratio] = TCC Slip
However, if you wanted the slip in every gear, you would need to make 4 pids based on the 80e ratios for 1st through 4th (2.48, 1.48, 1, .75). The above case only works in 4th gear.
I was mainly concerned with this because I thought there was a legitimate hardware problem, which I didnt want cooking my clutches and ultimately destroying an expensive drivetrain.
I read something on the hptuners forum about the speedo being off causing this type of error, so I double checked my vss pulses and corrected it and the speedo is dead-nuts on for what it should be with the tire height and gear ratios. However, there is still a ~150rpm slip when its "locked", but the math isnt showing that... Remembering I am still using the 60e tune, I checked the numbers with the 60es deeper OD and sure enough, that would make the "TCC Slip" equal to about 0. What this implies is the PCM has knowledge of the gear ratios in the transmissions and doesnt just use the speed sensors to calculate it.
Case in point;
I logged engine rpm, input shaft rpm, output shaft rpm, and tcc slip in a steady state highway situation. For this particular case these were the values:
Engine - 2212
Input - 2052
Output - 2953
So "TCC Slip" is defined as the difference between the engine rpm and input shaft rpm, so in this case it is measured as 2212-2052=160, which is exactly what HPT showed. But lets keep in mind where these numbers come from. The physical sensors are on the engine (crank sensor) and output shaft (vss sensor), so where does that input rpm number come from? Took me a while to figure out that it is a calculated value...based on the transmission ratios, and as far as the PCM knows im still using a 60e, not an 80e. So lets repeat the exercise for TCC Slip accounting for the correct ratios and knowledge that the physical sensors are accurate (engine and output).
[2212-(2953*.75)] = 0 That is to say the engine speed minus the trans output speed times the OD ratio I actually have gives me the true input rpm and now produces a TCC Slip value of 0 rpm. Excellent.
I am relieved to finally have an answer I am happy with, but disappointed there isnt a way to fix the problem without doing a segment swap as there is not access to the gears the PCM assumes you have. I dont want to do the segment swap because the torque converter unlocking at 0% throttle is extremely annoying. Secondly, if I am in a condition where the clutch is engaged, its at high speeds, so if I let off the gas I want the additional engine braking.
If you are particularly interested in seeing the TCC Slip value making a custom PID to get the *true* TCC slip is not hard, it would simply be:
[engine rpm] -[trans_output_shaft_rpm*actual_trans_ratio] = TCC Slip
However, if you wanted the slip in every gear, you would need to make 4 pids based on the 80e ratios for 1st through 4th (2.48, 1.48, 1, .75). The above case only works in 4th gear.
I was mainly concerned with this because I thought there was a legitimate hardware problem, which I didnt want cooking my clutches and ultimately destroying an expensive drivetrain.