nonnieselman

iTrader: (10)

I get alot of people telling me how ineffective the 223/5.56 is(little do they know). Saying how you cant hunt with it and such, it wont kill a deer or hog.

Even tho ive racked up quite a amount of kills with it on the farm. 95% of them being DRT's.
I took down 7 pigs one night with 7 shots, only the first shot was well aimed, more of a instinct shot on shots 2-7 since hogs started running in every direction. Using 75gr PPU match bullets loaded with some BLC-2.


So instead of arguing, i just keep doin what i was doin, trying not to laugh..



Then after looking for some load data for my new 24" 5.56 barrel i come across this over on another forum.


Here ya go. Read.


Is the 77gr .223/5.56 effective to 900yds and beyond?


""This is a question that comes up fairly often after students see their peers accurately and reliably engage the further targets that they thought were reserved only for their .30 caliber and larger rifles.

One of our students, a Mechanical Engineering PhD candidate in the Canadian Forces, and I set out to see if we could gather tangible results. Ballistic calculators and opinions attempting to answer this question are not in short supply. We didn't want a number telling us that it wasn't effective (after all, would any of us not use an available weapon to stop an attacker because the ft/lbs of energy weren't as high as they could be?), we wanted more.

We did the test, we have the results, and I plan on sharing the pictures and write up very soon. I'll just say this... Based on what I saw, I am excited about how much money I'll save shooting my own 5.56 SPR while my bolt-action .308 gathers dust in my safe. ""



"""Based on ballistics calculators (yes, as inaccurate as they can be), the Sierra 77 grain BTHP when shot from our SPR at 2680 fps, should be flying at ~1100 fps when it strikes our 920 yard steel target. I ran this data through numerous ballistic programs and compared the suggested MOA adjustments at different distances as per the calculator to the actual data used to engage the respective targets. Four out of the five ballistics calculations I made matched fairly closely with the actual data used on our range on targets from 270 yards to 920 yards. Based on the accuracy of the predicted elevation adjustments made by the software, I am assuming that the predicted velocity of the bullet at different ranges must be fairly accurate too. If it incorrectly predicted the bullet speed at a given range as too high or too low, the elevation adjustments given by the calculator would not have closely approximated the data we shot.

To give you an idea of the theoretical energy the bullet should have at 920yds, I will compare it to a familiar standard, a .38 special at the muzzle. Energy is calculated as half of the mass multiplied by the velocity squared.

E=1/2M x V^2
Mass = 77 grains x 0.0648 grains/gram = 4.9881 grams / 1000 = 0.0049 Kg
Velocity = ~1100 f/s x 0.3048 meters/foot = ~335.28 m/s

E=1/2(0.0049 Kg) x (335.28 m/s)^2
E=0.00245 Kg x 112412.67 m/s^2 = 275.411 (Kg m)/(s^2)
E=275 Joules x 0.7376 (ft/lbs)/J = 203.14 ft/lbs

Energy = ~203 ft/lbs

So, a 77 grain .223 bullet traveling at 1100 fps has 203 ft/lbs of energy. According to Federal Ammo's Data, their 138 grain .38 special FMJ has only 189 (+/-5) ft/lbs of energy. From the numbers, we can conclude that the 138 grain .38 special at the muzzle has only approximately 93% of the energy of the 77gr .223 bullet at 920 yards. Many people claim (guess) that the .223 past 900 yards is ineffective. Would those same people claim that a .38 special from point blank range is also ineffective?

Now that we have quantified the approximate energy of the 77 grain .223 bullet over 900 yards, lets carry on to the small experiment the sniper student and I carried out.

We decided to suspend 1 gallon water jugs from the target stand at 920 yards. We planned on shooting the water jugs with 77 grain .223 and 175 grain .308 respectively and interpreting the differences between the damage of the jugs to each other and to a jug shot by a .22 lr with a 40 grain bullet moving at approximately the same speed (1070 fps) as the 77 grain .223 moves at 920 yds (~1100 fps). The .22 merely poked holes in the water jug an provided no significant damage to the water jug. The 77 grain .223 and 175 grain .308, however, created impressive damaged to both of their water jug targets.

After shooting both jugs (the sniper student was able to hit his jug with .233 center mass), we went down range to see the results. Unfortunately, the plastic water jugs broke open so easily, it was quite difficult to see a difference between the two. Given the appropriate resources, we would have loved to shoot ballistics gelatin, but water jugs were used out of convenience.

After looking at the hill behind the target and at the large scattering of mangled bullets from previous misses, I noticed a trend. There was a great amount of disturbance on the area around the edges of the target (5 yards back), but there was a spot in the center (the shape of the target) that had no impacts. It was interesting to see the shape of the target cast on the hill behind it almost as if it were a shadow among the disturbed ground. Using the reference points of the edge of the target, we looked where the jugs were hung and where the bullets should have impacted. As luck would have it, we found the two bullets (vastly different than the weather aged mangled pieces and copper around them) exactly where they should have been.

This good news allowed us to interpret the results by using the bullets rather than the targets since both 1 gallon plastic water jugs "exploded" as their bullets impacted them. This also allowed us to come to a conclusion about what was happening to all of the 77 grain .223 bullets that were striking the steel target. The shrapnel field scattered behind the target showed proof of what happens when the bullets impact the dirt. The absence of any pieces of shrapnel (after hundreds of impacts) in front of the target, along with the distinct splash pattern on the paint of the target, proves that the 77 grain .223 bullets are impacting the steel hard enough at 920 yards to completely disintegrate on impact. The back of the target was solid copper and lead, the front of target showed only fine lead powder sprinkled on the ground from years of student's impacts. This is a much different result than the rumors of .223 bouncing off of targets at that distance.

Note the pictures of the bullets below. The first shows the recovered 77 grain .223 after passing through a 1 gallon water jug at 920 yards and impacting the ground behind it. The second, third, and fourth show the recovered .223 bullet compared to the recovered 175 grain .308 bullet. The fifth picture shows a sample of the many fragments found behind the target. If the .308 is accepted as the standard of performance for snipers at that distance, the .223 shows that it is not far behind. The .223 reacted proportionately to the .308 after striking similar targets. Taking into account the platform's lower recoil, lower cost, and faster follow up shots with higher capacity and more versatility (in an SPR format), the .223 shows that although it may not impart as much energy on the target as some might like, it still performs well enough to be effective.

Just think, what energy is anyone really ever happy with? When it comes down to it, wouldn't we all rather every bullet impacted the target with more energy? Since we must sacrifice to what exists rather than what we want, and when compared to the accepted .308, the SPR may just be the right choice for you. Come take one of our courses, rent the very SPR that was used to hit a 1 gallon jug center mass at 920 yards and see for yourself.

Note the oval pressure marks left by the grooves in between the rifling marks left by the lands in the barrel."""





""
While treading lightly when using ballistic charts to compare to real life, I thank you for posting them. The chart for the 77gr bullet confirms (theoretically) my math in my write up that the 77gr. .223 has more energy at 900 yards than a .38 special does at the muzzle. From the chart above a 77gr .223 at 900 yds = appx. 203 ft/lbs. Federal ammo claims their .38 special has only 189 ft/lbs at the muzzle. http://www.federalpremium.com/produc...gun.aspx?id=81""



http://www.sniperinfo.com/forum/show...yds-and-beyond

Cant get the pics to work yet...

jared91

iTrader: (3)

Good stuff! At 920yds the 77 grain projectile is traveling at 1100fps, which is JUST at the edge for doing its effective damage. 1100fps is the BARE minimum to get full penetration and expansion, but it is still enough. Now it is no doubt WAY harder to make a 920yd shot with a 5.56 than a 30 cal, but if you can make that shot with a 5.56, you can make it with anything.

blackcash

The guys who say it's ineffective are the same idiots who require the biggest magnum they can get to take down a deer. Also there's a huge difference going from say a 35 grain bullet to north of 70 with the .223. Which makes it incredibly versatile, but those not in the know are used to just ots offerings in the light bullets. Not hot and heavy handloads.

nonnieselman

iTrader: (10)

Im glad there are some folks that understand.
Now im goin for 1000yd milk jugs.
But with 80gr. Cant wait.

jared91

iTrader: (3)

sweeeet. What are you seating them too, and what kind of powder are you using to keep the bullets from tumbling past 850yds, when it transitions from super sonic? What barrel and length and what kind of velocities are you seeing?

nonnieselman

iTrader: (10)

Well the best load so far was 80gr NCC, 2.550" (jammed .002"), 24gr Varget, new LC brass, BR4. 2623FPS average on that load.. it only did a 1.125" group.
So i seated it to 2.500", 24.5gr Varget, neck sized LC brass thats fire formed in the gun, CCI 450 primers.
Gonna see how they do and go from there. I got a few more diff powder combos to try.

24" poly 3 groove Black hole weaponry barrel.

Not exactly all bullets tumble when they go thru the transonic stage, some might, some might not. gotta try it and see.


This fella was shooting 223 at ~ 1 mile.
Shooting A 223 Rifle To A Mile Accurately

They were using 80gr Amax at 2825ish fps and 75gr Amax 2950ish

nonnieselman

iTrader: (10)

My current load at 2623fps shows it shoud go subsonic right at the 1000-1025yd line.
If i can get it up around 2700 and it group good, then ill try it out to 1500ish and see what it does.

jared91

iTrader: (3)

awesome :biggrin:

BigDaddy0381

iTrader: (7)

I may be looking at this wrong but doesn't an arrow fly at give or take 300FPS? it kills stuff. I'm betting a sharped tip bullet at 900FPS would do the same when it hits and opens. it will still dump energy into the target, it might not exit but would kill said target.

nonnieselman

iTrader: (10)

Exactly!!
i cant ever stand when the 1000Ftlb energry debate comes up too...
if that were true, then i couldnt use my 223 with 75GR OTM's at 2350FPS to kill all them deer and hogs. Even at PBR its only 920ftlb energy.
But i dont ever remember seeing anything run off after getting hit.....